Cultivating Self-Trust: Carmell Clark Discusses Women's Empowerment in Business

Business as UNusual Ep 20 - Season 3 Transcript

Editted s3e20 Carmell Clark

[00:00:00] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Hi, welcome to business as unusual. I'm here today with Carmel Clark. Welcome to the show, Carmel.

[00:00:06] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Thanks, Aicila. I am really excited to be here with you again. One of my favorite people in the world. So anytime I can spend with you is perfect time for me.

[00:00:16] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: I love that. I feel the same way. And for those of you that haven't been with me from the beginning, Carmel, Was that one of the first guests on business as unusual. This is my second podcast. And it, she was at my inaugural participant and we were talking, I don't know, a few months ago and I was like, you should come back.

[00:00:38] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: It's better now. So, so she agreed to And also I feel like that gives us a little permission to kind of wander in some different directions. For those of you that want to know some of the basics of what Carmel is up to, I will make sure to link that episode in the comments, but we will go over a little bit so that they're not totally out of the blue.

[00:00:59] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: [00:01:00] However, just so you know, guys, I'm not going to follow the formula.

[00:01:04] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: How appropriate for

[00:01:07] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: have a great, I'm not usually super great at it. I do try to make sure I hit all the questions, but I, I'm going to skip some of them this time guys. It's, getting wild over here in podcast land.

[00:01:19] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: So before we, we jump into our deviation. What is your business, Carmel? You let folks open the door into your world.

[00:01:29] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Well, so I've been doing the work that I've been doing in different forms for about 23, 24 years now. And my company that I founded is called the Center for Transformational Influence. The focus of Center for Transformational Influence is really the focus on awareness of self. It's not self help, not personal development.

[00:01:47] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: It's awareness of self and how that. Moves into the personal spaces of how we build our self awareness, and I have a two year curriculum I've developed for that. That's online that people can join and do. I also [00:02:00] brought that into corporate trainings, specifically right now, focused on women's transformational leadership, helping women to develop. themselves and their leadership skills to be able to advance women, get them into the top levels of industry and business across all different sectors. Pretty excited about that. And I would say that the way that I've approached those kinds of trainings is customized. It's bespoke. I work with companies.

[00:02:25] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: I interview their women. We, do a lot of interaction beforehand so that the trainings are highly tailored to exactly what the women in their organization are going to most need and benefit by. So that's one of the areas of focus and then also executive coaching and mastermind groups. Those are, you know, it keeps me busy.

[00:02:45] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: There's a lot going on. So that yeah, I love my executive coaching one on one I will have to say, and this kind of leads into what we're going to be talking about today, but I, I knew long ago that I always wanted to take one on one clients [00:03:00] ongoingly because it's the most honest space, you know, you're on the ground one on one with somebody and you have to, you have to show up, there's no, you know, BSing, you have to bring it all the way in a one on one. Relationship because you can see straight, straight away the effects that you're having with the clients that you're working with. So I love that level of honesty with my work. It keeps me always learning on my toes. And you know, really, really honest with myself and my work.

[00:03:31] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Yeah. Having known you for more years than I'm going to say on a podcast and

[00:03:37] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: you

[00:03:38] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: make it look good.

[00:03:39] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: I'm just going to say, you make it look really freaking good. Go ahead.

[00:03:44] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Right back at you, sister. Sometimes I marvel at like, well, I can say I've known people that long that aren't my parents. It's sort of wild right. At any rate, one of the things that I've always really appreciated about you is the thoughtful integrity that you [00:04:00] bring to the type of work that you do.

[00:04:02] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: And, in addition to being busy with all these other activities, one of the things you've been working on are two books, I think maybe three, but there's two that you're talking about publishing at the same time. It caught my interest when you said that you were sort of taking on this concept of guru culture.

[00:04:20] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: And that's a, that's a big endeavor. I know you're not doing it by yourself. There's lots of people out there that are working on it. And you were the first person that really is probably six years ago, kind of laid out for me, The real concerns that you had with how the industry that you work in, moves at times and the ways in which you felt reticent to step forward until you had a sense of what caused those concerns.

[00:04:56] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: And I, of course, was like, You're never going to do that, I've watched you [00:05:00] in the world and also it probably wasn't the best help to you. Are you willing to lay out some, some of that framework for, folks so that they could kind of get a sense of, you know, what your next endeavor is bringing and maybe a little bit about how you think about that.

[00:05:15] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Well, I appreciate the question so much. I just have to say that straight off. I think that we really should be having this conversation about guru culture because it's pervasive. It's everywhere. It's in every part of our lives, every sector. It's one of the big challenges with parenting right now is, , how do you parent and, you know, raise children, having relationships with them where you're building trust instead of building authority, right? To be an authoritarian or, you know, just even authoritative. How do you actually really build those relationships of trust and, the currency of trust is what we're talking about here. I would say, first of all, it's in every part of our lives. We're culturally, inundated with [00:06:00] the idea of guru and what that means and how that looks.

[00:06:04] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Can you give an example or is that, I don't want to interrupt your flow, but when you say that, what's an example that you would, you know, I think people would relate to when you say we're in a day of a guru culture or guru

[00:06:15] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Well, I think we see it everywhere. I'll say right off, politics. Somebody trying to win our, our favor over somebody else and to be the, to be the one, right- to, to be the main one. And when you look at it, how I break that down is, does the leader, whoever the leader is, whoever's being given that kind of trust and authority. Do they actually lead people back to trust themselves more or do they lead people to try and trust them more? Right. That's kind of a fundamental definition for me of how we're looking at guru culture and how that breaks down. And so when I look at people who, follow An ideology or, get into cult thinking, as well, when we get into [00:07:00] places where we are giving our authority away to somebody else, and I would love to talk about that more. Let's dive into that a little bit deeper, but what does it mean? What is our authority? What does it mean to give it away to somebody else? When we do that, the expense to ourselves and to those around us is great.

[00:07:17] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: It's huge. And there are places and times where I feel like it is important for us to do. I'm going to give a certain degree, not all, but a certain degree of my authority to the surgeon who's going to perform the surgery that I need, for example? Like I want to know that this person is qualified, that they're going to do the very best job that they can do on my behalf for me. I think another one would be, with parenting. And I come back to it because it's kind of ubiquitous where, I see parent guilt all the . And I see kids, growing up, becoming adults and working through the issues that they have. It's just, part of life, I think. Where we have to really recognize that how the relationship works out requires [00:08:00] both sides and it requires building trust, not not using the authority in some way that's going to be self serving. Or

[00:08:10] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: hmm.

[00:08:11] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: self serving, I guess I should say.

[00:08:12] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Right. So real quick, because one, I want to share Carmela Carmelism. I'm not sure if that's the word. Something you said to me when I was struggling with receiving information from a source I didn't trust, but the information seemed to be wise or helpful. And you said, take the truth without the agenda.

[00:08:35] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: And I carried that anytime I'm questioning to me that that speaks a little to this step that we can take where someone says something and it's so really insightful or helpful, or it just aligns me in some way. And then I want to attribute something to them. And I just remember, I can take the truth without the agenda.

[00:08:57] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: I don't have to attribute any, [00:09:00] anything else to that moment. I can look for things outside of that. And then to speak further, like we were talking about the surgeon, you give authority, but you don't And I feel like that's a line people don't always understand that You know, if I, I had a surgeon when I had to have my gallbladder out and I was terrified and I realized I didn't really, I hadn't had a lot of like success with my doctor's referrals.

[00:09:24] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Anytime my doctor referred me to someone, I was a little bit like, yeah. And I thought, if someone's cutting into me, I have to do some research. So I did a lot of like looking on health grades and, and looking for someone that I feel real confident in. So I found a surgeon and then I went and met with them and made sure that like, and I was lucky it wasn't in like a life threatening thing and when it was painful, but I could take a minute to do that, but I didn't abdicate.

[00:09:48] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: I didn't say, Oh, whoever if you're a surgeon, go for it. It was also, what do I need from this? I need to have some sense that they're really paying attention. I need to feel a sense of rapport. I loved that the nurse told me [00:10:00] that he was a surgeon. Super anal and always had three copies of everything.

[00:10:04] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: I like to hear that about my surgeon. I feel like that's a lesson that, , you've taught in different ways, but I feel like that's a distinction that sometimes I see it actually with people who, as a contractor who I go into a business and folks would just throw their hands up.

[00:10:17] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: They want to abdicate. I was like, no, you care about this. You have to actually figure out how to pay attention, but not micromanage and not abdicate. And that middle ground, I think is to speak to what you're saying in terms of it being everywhere. I don't think it's something we really have a lot of examples of in how things are done

[00:10:33] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: I agree with that. And I love your use of the word abdicate. I think that's a perfect word to use in the context of this conversation and also in the context of how we look at how we give our trust, how we place our trust, how we understand the authorities in our lives, because it's, it pretty much draws that line.

[00:10:52] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Am I abdicating? Am I not abdicating? There's a very clear line there for us to be able to identify in any situation. You're [00:11:00] having a an argument with a significant other or, you know, family member or close person in your life, or even a boss, right? Like you, or an employee, like, how do you, how do you know where that line is for yourself?

[00:11:14] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Have you abdicated your own personal power? Or have you not abdicated your own personal power? That's an end. How do I understand that personal power? The number one way I understand it is my trust and self respect. If I know that I'm holding my, my trust with myself and my self respect, then I have my power.

[00:11:34] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: That's where it is. It doesn't mean that I have control over a situation. It doesn't mean that everybody agrees with me or that we're going to be able to move forward even, but it does mean that. In the situation, I know who I am to a great extent, that trust of myself and that self respect. So, I'd love to know what your thoughts are, Winnie.

[00:11:54] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: So I want to tease that out a little bit because you use three words that I think it might be helpful [00:12:00] for you to say what you mean by them, which is. You've made a little bit of a distinction between controlling the situation and having your power. And possibly within the context of that, what do you mean when you say you trust yourself and you have self respect?

[00:12:15] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: I know there have been times in my life where I would have said that I had self respect and I look back and I realize that I certainly didn't. Not, and especially not in the way that I believe you would describe, but I'd like to hear how you would describe it. Yeah

[00:12:32] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: It does come back to that question of trust and trusting the self and being trustworthy with myself. So and I guess I'll probably caveat this by saying the work of knowing ourselves is lifelong. So when I look back at myself at an earlier age and I see how I referenced myself and the decisions I made, I definitely am, probably more true to myself now than I was then.

[00:12:59] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: But [00:13:00] I think that's a function of life and living it. And, there's no way to. to achieve full self awareness in this, idea of culmination. I think we tend to try and place that on ourselves. And I don't think that's really helpful or effective, but I do think that we can know in any given moment whether We are trusting ourselves and being trustworthy with ourselves, right? There's a sense inside ourselves that doesn't necessarily reference our brain, our mind references something at a different level. Maybe you could say a heart level, emotional level, gut level, all of those intuitive level, those places. Is this something that is right or true for me? Or is it not? And I say that with the understanding that. First, like, well, maybe I'll put it this way, having grown up , in [00:14:00] a belief system of a certain kind and learning through that belief system, then that would become my reference point rather than myself being my reference point. And that can be very difficult because then if I'm trusting myself, I'm trusting myself to that other reference point, not to the center of my own being. Right. So how do I know the difference? How do I know I'm not gaming myself when I am saying, yes, I trust myself and I'm being trustworthy with myself. The hinge point for me comes to my looking at my own personal freedom and my own inner power in that freedom.

[00:14:36] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Do I feel that I can be completely free? Do I feel that I am in alignment with myself? And that can mean that I have a belief system right now that I feel aligned to and I'm doing that. And that's fine. And then maybe in 10 years that belief system has changed or gone away altogether and I'm aligned and I look back and I think, wow, I wasn't, [00:15:00] but maybe I was right. I think we do the best we can with what we have, what would look like it wasn't trusting myself would probably be where, whatever that system of belief was, where I went against that to something that felt like the detriment of myself, where I, I didn't feel aligned inside. I know these are kind of esoteric words to use or ephemeral.

[00:15:28] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Tell me if this sounds like it matches because you're reminding me of something that I've referenced before with folks, which is when my kids were toddlers, like two and three years old, I had a situation where a friend of mine had a very strong opinion about something that I didn't particularly feel like was any of her business and with my kids.

[00:15:48] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: And I thought about it cause I also was very open to learning and influence, but I just didn't agree with her sense of things, like my sense of what they needed and her sense of [00:16:00] it when I got out of the ego part of whether or not that was her business, I was like, no, it just doesn't feel right.

[00:16:06] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: And I went through this process of recognizing that it was hard to know for sure. This wasn't a life or death thing. Like they shouldn't be playing with dynamite or something. It was a more of a social construct kind of thing. And I went through this thought process of, okay, so if, If I'm right, or as right as it gets in this type of situation, and I follow what I think I should do, then that's great.

[00:16:31] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: And if it's somehow detrimental, you know, not damaging, somehow it felt easier to live with that. If it was because I was trusting my own sense of what I should do to show up for these little beings that were trusting me, right? To do this thing that she thought I should do that didn't feel aligned or like the right thing for my kiddos.

[00:16:50] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: And I was like, even if I do that and she's technically right, there's something in me that doesn't feel like that's the thing to do because later on, I could learn more [00:17:00] information, I guess, about things that they might need in the social way. But learning to trust myself about how to show up for them as a parent was a very precious kind of, cultivated gift I'd given myself.

[00:17:12] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: And so I felt not resistant because I was actually very like open to influence because I knew I had a lot to learn and all of that. It was a moment where I recognized, Oh, in the end, this is my responsibility and I need to really develop and cultivate a connection to my wisdom about it so that I can be in that space.

[00:17:31] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: With them and know what's best for them as their parent in the appropriate type of influence. You were talking about that earlier, not to control them, but to guide them to connect to themselves and their own inner wisdom and their own knowledge of how they want to show up in the world and make their world work according to what's

[00:17:48] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Yeah, I think that's a really great example to walk through this with actually. And as long as I have known you, watching how you have raised your kids, you have always engaged your kids in [00:18:00] conversation about things rather than try to, get your kids to think what you're thinking or to, make them do what you want them to do without any kind of pressure.

[00:18:12] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Acknowledgement of their own choice in the matter, their will and their choice in the matter and wanting them to be with you in the choices they're making rather than, you having to enforce it. And so I think that's an important distinction in this idea. You walk in with an openness in the first place.

[00:18:29] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: And I think that's one of the things that we tend to lose in our culture that becomes so polarized is this open mindedness, something that you've been doing with your podcast, before the first podcast. And this one again, is to create more inquiry, more curiosity, more open mindedness. And when we do that, we haven't abdicated anything. We actually have opened ourselves to more questions. That could help us arrive at a better answer. I don't think there's ever going to be a time when that's not the case. One of your questions that [00:19:00] you have for your normal podcast is what was something that you learned or some kind of mentor information that you received that's been, very important for you and in your work, and that would be my second mentor, Stan, when

[00:19:14] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: I was sharing with him all of the work that I was doing and my ideas about the things and what was important. And I was so fiery about it and in the context of some of the gurus that were out there and my, my pushing back against them. Right. And feeling that I was right. So that I was right in the work that I was doing that was not guru focused against these people who were in my perception, highly guru. And , quietly, he just smiled. He said, you know, Carmel, I've always found in my life that I'm not interested in my ideas. I'm interested in the best ideas. It stayed with me forever. It stopped me cold. I realized my ego is definitely playing out my need to feel important in the work I was doing and my need to be right in [00:20:00] it. And that was its own reflection point for me, for sure. And to be able to feel the freedom, and this is that important piece, that freedom that came the moment that I let go of my needing to be right. And instead wanting to be able to find what I could find to be defined as the best ideas. What would signify the best ideas in a situation, whether or not they were mine, that open mindedness feels really important and key in how you're talking about this.. You talked about red flags versus green flags, right?

[00:20:32] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Before we started the recording today. What are the green flags for knowing our way out of guru culture and out of a guru situation, whether we're the leader or we're somebody who's seeking the knowledge and direction of somebody else. Right.

[00:20:48] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: hmm.

[00:20:49] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: So I think those green flags, one is that open mindedness, that curiosity, the ability to ask questions and then ask better questions. Always stay open that way. People ask me, what do you believe when it [00:21:00] comes to something like spiritual belief or something like that? And I, I found years ago that if my belief system could continue to change, then how could I stand on anything as being absolute in any given moment? Because we do change. So I respond to that question by saying my belief system is a working model subject to change at any time because of that inquiry. doesn't mean that I'm easily moved. And that brings me to the second thing open mindedness. Second thing I would say is principle. Do we know what our principles are?

[00:21:33] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: What are principles in the first place? The work that I do, the core self discovery, self awareness work right at the get go, ask people to walk into looking at their core values and looking at their core principles. They're two very different things. And I am, I think I'm astonished at how many people don't really understand what a core principle is for them. And then they start the [00:22:00] process of looking inside to figure out what that might be. And that I think is one of the biggest fail safes that we have to guru culture is knowing what our own principles are and being clear about that and making decisions in our life around that.

[00:22:15] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Can you give an example in the distinction between a value and principle? So what's about example value principle and then what you would say is the difference?

[00:22:25] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Yeah, no, that's an excellent question. And do train on this, because I think it's so important. The core values are really the flavors or the lenses, that are most, Resonant for us in how we look at the world. So like, if I go through a list of like 370 values, all different kinds of things, the three that most resonate for me at the top are freedom, creativity and intimacy. I have somebody [00:23:00] recently their core values are, integrity, gratitude and, wonder, right? So there are really these lenses and we can have many, many, values that we interact with the world through. But what I have found is that there are going to be three that are most important. They're there all the time. They've been there. We can look back at our life at an early age and see them playing through for me, freedom, creativity, and intimacy. That's deep connection with others and with myself. Those are the three values that most drive how I see things, how I make decisions, what matters to me and what's important compared to core principles.

[00:23:48] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: So core principles for me. One core principle for myself, the way I word it is common human dignity and respect. That's a core principle. So when I look at the [00:24:00] world, I will make decisions of what I take action on, what I stand up for, what, how I look at what I would consider to be right and wrong based on common human dignity and respect. Another core principle was one that I grew up with, with my mom saying to me over and over again. And it's a, it's been around for a long time. Be true to principles and not to people where instead of following what somebody says, I follow a principle and Take that through line in the way that I meet the world, meet life, meet, relationships and decisions that I make. Those are just a couple of examples. Does that clarify a little bit more?

[00:24:45] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: It does. And it actually answers my question. Because when you're talking about principles, there's a heart piece to it. I feel like I've seen principles described in a way that can create kind of a heartlessness and And I'm not, I'm not hearing that in what you're [00:25:00] describing. And I think that that is.

[00:25:02] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: It's reassuring for me because it's as a, so you, I don't know if I've mentioned this yet to the listeners. But I have been the last couple of years, maybe three, it's been a little bit very interested in cults and watch cult documentaries, not joining them. I have not joined several. I have simply watched lots of documentaries and listened to a lot of different podcasts and been finding myself quite intrigued by the ways in which the fundamental abuses of power that occur, they're sort of structured abuses of power as one of the experts in one of the shows that I've been listening to speaks about. And. To go back to what you're talking about, like with children Dr Hasson, he's a Dr. Steven Hasson. He's a cult expert.

[00:25:50] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: He has a PhD in cult studies and he has created what he calls the bite model, which is the difference between ethical and unethical influence. And he's [00:26:00] about how, as parents, you have an obligation to have influence on your children and there is ethical influence and he kind of has broken it down into some different.

[00:26:10] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Aspects. I highly recommend people go check it out. I'll drop a link in the show notes for you. And when I think about it in any situation, the minute that I'm in that, like you're talking about the need to be right or the need to win. The moment I feel like I'm having a power struggle. I know that I have stepped away from something that

[00:26:29] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: matters to me. And. I'll put a caveat out there. There are times when we are in the type of situation where, we are being oppressed. That's not the same thing. So if that's you, I'm not talking to you. And if that's someone you know, I'm not talking about them. So leave them out of it. I'm simply talking about places where you have a reasonable aspect of self determination.

[00:26:57] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: And then suddenly you feel yourself in this, [00:27:00] not conflicts. I think conflicts fine, but in this power struggle, you need to win. There's an up down piece. And I think it's baked into a lot of systems. It's one of the things that I've talked about around business as unusual. I don't know if I've talked about it actually on the podcast yet, which is the idea of being in a power with dynamic with your staff and with your collaborators as opposed to some sort of hierarchical power over, which doesn't mean something doesn't take the lead on something. People get confused by that. It's just that the power all is kind of shared collectively, even if sometimes the decisions get made and you're not part of

[00:27:33] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: I think that.

[00:27:33] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: that's really well said. When I am training coaches in my method, the, what I, it's the transformational influence method is the name of my method. When I'm training coaches in my method, one of the biggest challenges I have is helping them to learn that distinction because at that level, it becomes quite simple.

[00:27:52] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: subtle. How do you coach somebody who's given you all this trust? The ability to give them [00:28:00] answers. They literally, they're listening to you to get answers from you. That's how the models tends to work. And how do you not do that? How do you be with them? How do you show up? In power with them instead of using that power, even for the best of intentions.

[00:28:19] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Even if you have all the experience in the world and you know that you can help them, how do you not use it in that specific way where then you very subtly still make yourself the guru or even harder when you are still with them in the coaching and they turn around and give you all the credit. Oh, Carmel, like this is the most amazing thing.

[00:28:39] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: You're the best coach because of you, I've been able to. This in this and, and , these are common. This happens all the time. And on the one hand, people are expressing gratitude and we want to be able to receive that gratitude. At the same time, I have always very clear and careful with my clients and my groups that I lead, [00:29:00] that their transformations belong to them.

[00:29:02] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: We are working on this together, we are in it together, and the way that I describe it, and this comes to another principle of mine, core principle, is best said by the indigenous activist Lila Watson in Australia, when she said, if you've come to help me, you're wasting your time, but if your freedom is bound up with mine, then let us work together. I love that. Quote so well, it describes the core of my soul that I feel that when I'm in a situation like that, and when I'm training my coaches, I'm with them when I'm working with clients and groups, I'm with them, I'm not above, and even with all the experience and the fact that I am the one leading whatever the situation is that we are in. I recognize that I'm learning just as much as they are if I'm open to it and I want to be open to it. And I'm grateful for that learning. I'm grateful for that opportunity. I think that's another element to make sure we don't miss as we're talking about this is gratitude. You [00:30:00] really can't practice taking somebody else's trust or the authority that they're giving you. From themselves. If you are in deep gratitude, the two don't go together. So having that deep humbleness and gratitude within the self is an element of this that I think we're talking about. And this idea of the intersection of your greater freedom in mind, that being the place where neither of us is in a hierarchical structure a, in a setting of any kind. Yeah.

[00:30:34] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: So I went to a conference this last week. I can't remember if I told you about it. It was amazing. It was not what I expected it to be. It was significantly better. And one of the speakers Margo Okazawa Wray from San Francisco State University was talking about how women will mistake humility with making themselves small.

[00:30:59] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: [00:31:00] And she said that. Humility is really recognizing that you're part of something bigger, which you still feel like you're not the whole thing, but instead of trying to squish yourself down, you're your full self, and you know there's something even bigger that you're a part of. And that's when I hear you say gratitude, I don't know if that was the logical leap for everybody else who's not inside the twisty world of my brain but when I hear that, you can't have gratitude and try to be in control of people in that way, I'm like, okay.

[00:31:29] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: I just felt the memory of her saying that and that feeling of right. Like if you're in gratitude for where you are in this life that you're in and things that are bigger than you, then you want to be in partnership and you don't need to like try to manage things or manage yourself or like jockey for some position because you can really be in the full spectrum of that experience and in that joy with others, that partnership that is so collaborative and is.

[00:31:57] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: I, I feel very, [00:32:00] bolder right now. And yet I also stand by this, like this feeling of connection and the, and what that can bring for us. So thank you. I hadn't really thought of it as gratitude, but something about those two things just kind of

[00:32:12] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: I love this so much. It actually brought to mind an experience that a great self awareness classroom that I had, back in an earlier part of my life. So it turned out that, I'm really good at. Pinch hitting, and problem solving and have been all my life. And I ended up finding myself repeatedly doing all of these things to, fill in the gaps or make people's weddings come off, beautifully or to solve the problems at the last minute that nobody could solve. And, it just kept escalating. Like more and more of these experiences kept coming in with people in my life who had weddings that I was showing up to as an attendee. And then I would end up, stepping in and fixing and solving the problem, making everything go [00:33:00] smoothly. Over and over and the degree to which I was doing, it got bigger and bigger to the point where I was actually writing personal checks to vendors at the site because the people the couple had not planned well, and, even with all my help.

[00:33:16] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: So they planned great. They invited you. Yeah.

[00:33:23] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: right? Like I tried to preempt this by helping them ahead of time so that we wouldn't end up in a situation like this. And then it kept happening. And I finally had to step back after this one situation.

[00:33:33] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: I stepped back and said, okay, Carmel, you're the common denominator in this. You're the one who keeps finding yourself in these situations. Nobody else around you is. Why? Okay. Bye. What's really going on? Why is this? And it took a little bit of self reflection, a little bit of time. But what I realized was my need to feel important.

[00:33:53] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: There was my ego right there in front of me. My need to feel important was bringing me into situations where I could [00:34:00] be the savior, right? I could walk in and save the day and all of that. And when I realized that was what was happening, I sat down with myself and said, we're going to be done with that now.

[00:34:11] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: What is it that you need, Carmel, that you're needing to have this kind of visibility and importance and specialness? Let's give it to yourself. Let's take care of that in house. Let's figure out how you take care of you to such a degree that you don't need to walk in and worry about and save the day for anybody else.

[00:34:27] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: They've got it. They'll figure it out. And if they don't as my mom always says, if the wedding cake falls, it's all right. It's going to be fine. Right? Right. So I think that this for me is one of those examples of being able to to see the guru tendencies. We all have them in one form or another.

[00:34:44] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: It can come in any situation, but the fundamental piece of it is this need of our ego to feel safe and to feel special. We all require that as human beings. The question is, can we do it for ourselves and not at the expense of [00:35:00] others? Right? That's the question for me. When I look at the work that I do and what I have built and why I'm so sensitive to guru energy all around me, it's because I realized early on in doing this work in 20 years ago that I had people coming to me for answers and God, it felt great to give them the answers and watch them walk out the door happy and empowered and alive. And then they come back and we do the same thing the next week and the same thing the week after that. And they weren't actually moving forward. And when I figured that out. When I saw that happening, and then I had to really sit down with myself and say, why is that happening? And I realized it's because they weren't trusting themselves. They were trusting me and I knew I was trustworthy. So it felt fine at first that they would trust me because I knew I was trustworthy, but nothing was accomplished. Nothing greater was gained ever, not for me or them. And that necessitated a change, which at that early stage, I actually, my business had just like taken [00:36:00] off and I kind of killed it by trying to get clients to move into this process of trusting self. And most of them didn't want to, they just wanted to keep having me be the guru.

[00:36:10] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: And I realized I didn't want to be the guru. And so I stepped out of that lovingly. said goodbye to those clients and started over with a new paradigm. And I have never regretted that decision. It definitely is a harder go in different times in different ways, because people tend to want the safety of somebody telling them what to do. I've had clients that have literally said those words to me, Carmel, just tell me what to do and I'll do it. And I look at them and I say back, I trust you. I completely trust you. It is not the best news they wanted to hear, right? But it's the best news they could hear.

[00:36:47] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Yeah. To go back to the, the thing you said earlier, like with kids, I, part of my motivation for wanting to ground them [00:37:00] in a trust of their own decision making is. I knew that I was going to do the best that I could, I wouldn't always be right, but I'd always have like a good intention and , a lot of focus and all of that.

[00:37:11] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: And if what they grew up learning was to listen to the loudest voice in the room, then I don't know what rooms they're going to be in. Like, I've been, who knows what they're going to do. And so learning how to make that discernment, that felt like the most important thing, in terms of them being able to really navigate life in a way that, that was going to be fulfilling.

[00:37:35] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: And it's more fulfilling for me too, because they're a whole person, I'm not responsible for their emotions. As adults, we have actual relationships as people. Of course, I'm still their mom, but there's this other aspect of engagement that we can have.

[00:37:48] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: And I feel like it is partially due to, to them knowing that I will respect how they think about something, even if it's not the same. And [00:38:00] me feeling like I don't have to be something for them. Like if I had taken that on, I'd always have to be that. And as they get older, it's harder. I

[00:38:08] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: think when they're little, it's very simple.

[00:38:10] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Like, you know, don't run in the streets. Keep your fingers out of the light sockets. We're good. Then they get older and it's like, I actually, I'm trying to figure these things out myself. Maybe you should think about it. I got to tell me what you come up with. I'm like cliff notes. Thanks kids.

[00:38:28] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: You're

[00:38:28] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: you're not wrong.

[00:38:30] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: right now it's a, I don't know.

[00:38:32] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: I'd like, but you just made me think of that. So all of this, the guru culture, the self work, values and principles. I'm going to cycle back to the executive leadership programs that you do, the transformational work that you do in companies, walk people through maybe an example of how this shows up in the corporate world or a way that identifying this can help a woman move from being in because I know you've helped a lot of women [00:39:00] who are kind of stuck in stuck, right?

[00:39:01] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Like they're capable, they're competent, they're intelligent, they're driven and they're not able to move into the leadership role or just the role in general that they want. And there's an invisible wall of marshmallow or something. And you've helped many women navigate that the marshmallow.

[00:39:17] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: And so how did, how do you see, can you give an example of how that through line goes from I have this value, this principle or this self awareness, however you want to, to I've navigated the marshmallow wall at my

[00:39:29] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Yeah.

[00:39:30] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: I've just dubbed it that for you and everybody else,

[00:39:32] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: One of my favorite topics though. So thank you. Love you for that. Okay. So the first thing that I'm going to say is. Most women are the last of the party on knowing their own genius. I'm going to say this and I mean it with all the love in my heart to everybody who ever hears this men assume much more about themselves in our culture.

[00:39:57] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Generally, it's been studied over and over. It doesn't mean [00:40:00] men don't have insecurities. Absolutely. Men have insecurities and I love working with my male clients. It's a very different paradigm when we're working with those insecurities and they're real. And then they're important to, to be tackled with women. It's both the personal level, but also there is a systemic cultural level of insecurity that women have to tackle. Especially in business environments, these are business environments that were developed over centuries in our current model, business model by men. And women were a commodity of that, business model for, many years and in some ways still are.

[00:40:38] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: And so we have to be really clear about, what the playing field is. And that's one of the things I do with women is help them without, there's no victim card here. You're only a victim if you choose to be. All things are not equal and life is not fair and we have to catch up to that and then get to the, the point where we're not victims and let's take on what the system is and what the situation is. I just say that all at the beginning because we have to tell the truth about it. [00:41:00] But once we have, told the truth and we recognize I'm not a victim of the situation of my culture or the, inequalities that are there, instead I am not going to accept that as the status quo, then we can start from that point moving forward.

[00:41:18] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: That's one of the things that I do right off the bat is have the conversation with women to get them back to the point where they can see what I call, what was never okay to begin with. What was never okay to begin with when I say that we step back, step back, step back to the point where we realize, wow, like I was fundamentally just assumed not to know as much, or I was fundamentally assumed to not be as smart.

[00:41:44] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: And I was fundamentally assumed to not be competent or capable in these areas or in these ways. And we have to challenge those assumptions at their inception point, wherever they happen. If it happened in childhood, if it happened, whatever those are, we have [00:42:00] to challenge those assumptions so that we can start from this place of, I have me as my whole self and the reference point for what I'm going to do moving forward. So that's one of the first things that I do is I want to have women find themselves as that center reference point without these disabling. and disempowering assumptions that we grow up within. That means it's going to challenge right off the bat. It's going to challenge a lot of the business structures that they find themselves in, and it's okay.

[00:42:30] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: It's a challenge. That's how change occurs. I want us to be the challenge to those things that need to change in ways that allow them to come about those changes to come about. , When I bring in this kind of work with the leadership trainings, that's fundamentally where we begin. What I'll probably say is what I said earlier, I do a lot of interviewing.

[00:42:52] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: I ask, companies and organizations to set me up with A small group , of the demographic [00:43:00] of women that I'm going to be training so that I can get in conversation with them, have a lot of questions and answers, get into the core and the essence of where, where their common intersection points of disempowerment are.

[00:43:16] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: And then break that down. I ask questions to break that down to find out where do those, those points of disempowerment come from? Are they external? Are they systemic? Are they situational? Are they internal? Right? Do they come from personal background? You know, tease those out and I've been doing this for a long time, so I can actually tease those out pretty well and pretty quickly. Then I'm able to articulate the training itself that designing and developing for that organization. I can actually have that training. Really meet the needs of the women specifically to help them advance themselves. And I love saying it that way, Giving women the support where they advance themselves, even in [00:44:00] situations where there are environmental and systemic, barriers to their advancement and they can and do. I guess I'm saying that kind of a top level, I'll give you some examples. I had one woman I was working with at a major consulting firm on the East coast. And she had been in the industry for 25 years. Her reputation was stellar as the one to get it done. And she'd been doing that, but she couldn't advance beyond a certain level again and again and again. And when she and I met. What I found that was that inside of her, even with growing up with two parents who were attorneys and, Always empowered her and all of that inside She had she'd experienced some different things that had caused her to tell a lie to herself that disempowered Her that somehow other people weren't going to see [00:45:00] how genius she was.

[00:45:01] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: And she was always going to be in this cycle of having to prove herself over and over and over again, instead of her coming full circle to herself and recognizing she didn't have to prove herself to anybody and that she knew what her competencies were and her genius was, and that she could stand on that securely.

[00:45:19] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: And the decision makers were either going to catch up and get it, or she was going to move to a Place and a position where she was recognized. See that difference like that's right there. That's a perfect example of what we're talking about at this deep level of transformation in this situation, the guru or the authority that she was giving away her power to was the organization and the decision makers within it who weren't Recognizing her and the moment she came back to recognizing her own authority to herself, taking it back.

[00:45:52] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: We did that work, taking it back and holding her own authority with herself and requiring them to catch up to it because she held her [00:46:00] to extremely high standards and levels of integrity and competence. So she already had such a degree of excellence in her work and in her personal way of doing her life. So expecting them to catch up. Was where she needed to be so that she could make her best next decisions. And in fact, it did come to that. She found herself in a situation on the promotion cycle for going all the way to, the executive level in her organization, partner level in her organization. And when the word behind the scenes came back that she probably wouldn't go up again, she just said, great, thanks for letting me. This was after our coaching together for a year. Right. And she came back this time instead of feeling defeated, instead of feeling like she had the last year before we started coaching, feeling all of that loss and what do I have to do to prove this to you?

[00:46:50] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: I keep trying. She came back that time and she said, great, thanks for letting me know. I'm just giving you my two weeks notice as a courtesy. I mean, I don't really owe it to you [00:47:00] for everything I've already put in, but I'm giving you my two weeks notice and you're gonna have to figure out how to take over. These clients, some of the biggest clients of the organization. And that was it. She was clear. She had already, we'd already worked through so that she knew what her pathways were that empowered her, that were within her integrity with herself. She was doing it for her reasons. The right reasons inside. She didn't need to prove it to them anymore. She needed to prove

[00:47:25] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: to anybody else anymore. She just needed to show up to being trustworthy with herself. And that was the bottom line. And when she did that, what ended up occurring was very interesting. In this very large organization, it went all the way up to the very top within hours and conversations were happening and everything got switched.

[00:47:47] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: And she was put on the track and moved all the way through. Like she didn't have to. Pasco or collect 200. That's the way that it worked and I'm not saying that that's how it works all the time for every single person, [00:48:00] whatever the choice is, however it goes, being able to walk through and have yourself, your self respect, your trust with yourself, your integrity, right?

[00:48:08] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: That is the fundamental bottom line that we're working with. You're going to bring your success when you stay centered in your self respect, your trust and your integrity with yourself. So I think that's kind of an example of, of this,

[00:48:25] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: That's a great example. I really appreciate you calling out or identifying the result isn't the point. That it's not what happened afterwards was fantastic. And the point was she was able to regain that sense of her own center and take back that idea for validation based on this whole concept.

[00:48:48] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: And when she did that, of course, it changed the interactions. I've noticed this, like, if you act like people can give you permission to do something, they usually will decide they can too. It's

[00:48:59] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Isn't it

[00:48:59] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: not, [00:49:00] I. I. It is. I tried very hard. I'll notice what I'm doing. I'm like, no, no, wait, I gotta, I gotta say that a different way.

[00:49:06] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: I had to show up differently. I'm not actually going to give you permission to give me permission. And then we're

[00:49:11] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Oh, amen.

[00:49:11] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: because I set you up to fail, right? Like, it's not even their fault. I'm the one that's, that acted like they had that power and then I resisted it. which is, I guess, kind of a fun game, but it's not the one

[00:49:21] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: And that's, that's the very thing I'm talking about, right. With women in business that instead of looking at it as, I have to have your permission and your validation. I instead look at it as I give myself permission and I take care of my validation in house. Like it's internal. I don't need your validation in order for me to know who I am, to know how well I'm doing. I can take measurements from the outside. We should always do that. That's how I talk to people. They're like, well, what about, you know, personnel evaluations and three sixties and all of that. And I say, it's information. It's measurement information. That's it. It's not a referendum on you. You're the one that needs to be really clear and [00:50:00] decide for yourself where you are most happy and most fulfilled and most in alignment with your own goals.

[00:50:09] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Not with how you're achieving what what an organization or a boss or, a partnership group is putting on you. And I think, that's the difficulty is that when we finally get to that point, it's really rewarded, our business and corporate structures highly reward. individuals who trust themselves that to that degree. But the other side of it, and I think this has to be spoken of as well, is that there's a lot of bullshitting out there. There are a lot of people who, who, bullshit their way. They trust themselves from a narcissistic perspective and that's at the expense of others.

[00:50:45] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: That's why I'm saying one of the measures for us, one of the green flags is knowing, am I empowered In myself. And not at the expense of others, because if I am empowering myself at the expense of others, then [00:51:00] I've crossed that line. That's a tyrant. That's a dictator. That's a narcissist.

[00:51:06] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: And those are not going to be healthy situations for anybody.

[00:51:12] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Yeah, and I think that my observation of the work that you've done with people over the years is that sometimes what happens is they actually realize that the system itself that they're in is extremely against them and toxic, which is often true of corporate cultures for many identities. But it helps the person from my perspective on the outside, it seems to have helped people to leave in a way that doesn't make it about them not being good enough.

[00:51:40] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: And sometimes leaving before they get too beaten down by, by, well, it's just what you're saying. They keep doing everything and it's not quite enough for some reason. And the reason is that the circumstances are against them and there's not a way forward. And the only way forward is out and starting somewhere where they can establish the sense of that self respect right from [00:52:00] the beginning and see that it's being properly received.

[00:52:04] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Right. I'm glad that you said that because I think that's another very important factor that we have to take into account is the intrinsic racism that is something that we are always needing to be conscious about in how we weigh these situations out. You could look at something, a situation and think, Oh, well, this person had, , the same chances as everybody else here. And that is not the case. Let's just be completely truthful about that. It's not the case. And so what we're doing to advocate for the invisible, or usually an often invisible elements of privilege that are going on within business decision making and advancement processes.

[00:52:53] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: The

[00:52:53] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: The marshmallow wall.

[00:52:54] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: right? We have to take that into account. I've done a lot of work with that, [00:53:00] with my women clients and my women of color clients that I really straight up. I'm like, we need to break this down and see, is this a situation of racism because too often in order to play the game, they internalize so much of that to just, be able to try and advance.

[00:53:18] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: And I'm like, no, you'll advance, but you're not taking that with you. If I have anything to do with it, if it's on my watch, we're going to call it out and make sure that that's not on your back, that you know, that it's not yours. To carry that's not yours at all. And I think it's really relieving. I think it's, it's a conversation. And I don't want to get off topic what we're talking about, but I think this is important. It's a conversation that we need to be willing to have. And, for me as a white woman, right, I need to be willing to have that conversation where, the women of color next to me may not feel comfortable bringing it up, but by God I can right.

[00:53:51] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: And I will. And then that allows to be less than visible, more visible, and therefore something that has to be [00:54:00] dealt with. Something that has to be taken on and addressed.

[00:54:04] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Yeah, the shining of the light it does help to break things down. And I do think you're correct that you have the privilege in the room to name it and. And I feel like similarly as a white woman when I do name that, I often can see that feeling of relief, like, Oh, I'm not alone in this. Somebody else is actually going to carry this with me because frankly, we've let women of color carry it by themselves and black women specifically way too long. And so,

[00:54:31] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: right. And so I do appreciate you bringing that out.

[00:54:34] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Right.

[00:54:36] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: and, and we was way longer than any time. And, and so I just, I really appreciate you bringing that out because it is, once again, there's Respected people who talk about, showing up really vulnerably.

[00:54:50] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: And I know that the Black women and the other women of color that I've worked with are like, that's not always actually an option for me. Because how I look creates a [00:55:00] different way that that's received. And so I'm really glad that you named that and that you talk about that and that's something that you bring into your programs.

[00:55:09] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Because the only way we're going to change things is if we change things like we're, it's, we're going to change how we do things when we change how we do things is number one. Like you said, if we shine that light on it, we're going to have to do another podcast. Cause I know you have another meeting.

[00:55:25] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: But for real quick, I know that this kind of work can be a mountain to climb some days. What do you do to recharge or keep yourself up? For those times when you look at the mountain of misogyny, racism, and other things that you're helping people dig through. And you're like, wow, it's a big mountain.

[00:55:43] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Yeah.

[00:55:47] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: probably. I mean, I've been pushing back against this since I was a small child and I have a history of this. So the push itself is just kind of intrinsic in my being. Maybe I'm, [00:56:00] adjusted to it, being just the way that I meet the world, not in a conflict way, but in a way that, , what's not okay to begin with.

[00:56:08] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: That right there. Right. So I'm going to say that's probably one piece for me. That's big and important. But to answer your question, I, in the work that I do, I came a long time ago, in a lot of Buddhist and Taoist philosophy in, in the work that I do, which led me to this. tenant inside myself, which is, working with one person is working with millions and working with millions is working with one.

[00:56:42] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Like there is no difference inside me. Both are of equal gravity, depth, and importance to me. And because of that, my ability when I show up to Any situation in my life. That's how it feels. It is [00:57:00] an opportunity for the greater freedom of anybody else. Also being my greater freedom. And that motivates me constantly without end. I am motivated by freedom. Thank God, because that's, , what leads out here. When I can do whatever I do in the ways that I show up, any little movement to somebody's greater freedom or emancipation inside themselves is also my own. And that fuels me, that will energize me all day long.

[00:57:28] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: And so when the world gets a bit heavy, more what I'm going to do, or it gets really heavy, let's be honest, it gets super, super heavy. What I really turn to is the actions that I can take that help free us to a greater degree, whatever that degree might be. And that comes in many forms. So I'm always looking for that, always seeking that out.

[00:57:57] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: I have seen [00:58:00] that. And for folks who are listening, how do they learn more? Follow you, get in touch. Are there any upcoming events that you want to encourage people to check out?

[00:58:09] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: so much. Or anything else.

[00:58:12] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: yeah, actually great. I'm partnering with Global Women Fresh and its founder Julie Escobar and my colleague Laura Dellinger. We're doing virtual coffee chats that are posted to LinkedIn once a month. The next one's going to be on June 5th. You can find on my LinkedIn page, how to join that and just become a be part of that conversation. But to, if you're interested in having a conversation, you want to work with me I'd love to talk with you. You can reach out to me directly through my email carmel@carmelclark.com. It's two L's with Carmel. Also you can find me on my website, carmelclark. com. also just message me directly on LinkedIn and find me there under my name again.

[00:58:56] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: So pretty easy. I would love to, to find out what's [00:59:00] going on and see if there's something I can do to help and support.

[00:59:05] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Thank you so much. I appreciate you. I love that. We can still, after. So many years has so much to talk about. And I love hearing what you're up to and the way that you are working to help to create opportunities for people to be in the world and in their work in a way that's aligned.

[00:59:24] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: It's very much. My goal with business as unusual is to highlight businesses and practices that are creating more human ways of doing business. So thank you so much for coming and sharing that.

[00:59:35] carmell-clark--she-hers-_1_05-07-2024_141349: I just wanna say thank you for the great gift of this conversation. It's been really phenomenal and amazing for me. Thank you for that.

[00:59:44] bau--she-they-_1_05-07-2024_141349: Thank you. All right. Bye everybody.