Revolutionizing Design for Social Impact feat. Jason Ulaszek

Business as UNusual Ep 25 - Season 3 Transcript

[00:00:00] Aicila: Hi, welcome to business as unusual. I'm here today with Jason. Hello, Jason.

[00:00:05] Jason: Hello.

[00:00:06] Aicila: And we're going to. We already started chatting a little bit, and I think we're going to have a very wide ranging and delightful conversation. So it's more of the same, but with Jason this time. Will you just say a little bit about your business, what it is, what you do?

[00:00:22] Jason: Yeah. First of all, thank you for having me. I appreciate it. It's always fun to talk to new people. I kind of describe myself as a curious, curious designer and entrepreneur. I don't know if those always go together, but I do a few things. One is I have a design collective. Called Enzo Vu, and we focus on digital product and service design for a variety of different types of clients, both non profit and for profit and kind of a variety [00:01:00] of different types in between.

[00:01:03] Jason: And I also have a, Nonprofit called UX for good, where we focus on design and social impact. And I usually teach once a year at DePaul university as an adjunct faculty professor, in the master's program a UX practicum course, which is Sort of like a capstone, but teaching newly minted designers how to be design professionals in the world of business so that they can maximize their impact that they have.

[00:01:40] Jason: And we typically bring in non profits in the classroom to try to create some positive impact in the world and give them a bit of a portfolio piece. So those are three kind of the professional things I typically focus in on for the vast majority of my time. And of course I'm a dad and a husband and I have three kids that are pretty [00:02:00] young so I try to get involved with you know, all their activities and be present in the moment of those things too, so.

[00:02:08] Jason: Some days I don't know which way is up and which way is down, but all I can say is keep moving forward, because if you stop, you might take a nap.

[00:02:18] Aicila: No, no, it's true, right? I invite kids or adults out in the world and. I had, I had kids pretty young and I used to say that the advantage of that is you get very zen very fast because you recognize that you have to be present and you really don't have any control over anything. So you learn how to accept that, just go with what's happening and, they're good teachers.

[00:02:46] Jason: That's for sure.

[00:02:50] Aicila: we're talking about design, and I'm sure we'll touch on all these topics. They're obviously such a great fit for the folks that I have listening and just my own interest set. So I really [00:03:00] appreciate you joining me today. And a woman that I worked with several years ago said something that I thought was really interesting, that people are products of the system that they're in. And when you think about design, think about the ways in which design can disrupt or enhance, the system that we're already part of.

[00:03:23] Jason: You know, like in my career, I have had the opportunity to work internally as an employee in a large corporation. That's where I sort of cut my teeth, as it relates to design, user experience design, and learning a lot about how large organizations work, and how to build a case for investment in design, and what really is important.

[00:03:49] Jason: Is the impact of a, you know, good experience for an employee or a customer or a salesperson or a, you know, whatever it might be. [00:04:00] And and then I also worked in the agency world and have been exposed to a lot of different business models and types and industries. And I'll just say that, yes, corporations versus , let's say a non profit, they can have similar sorts of values, they can have similar sorts of goals of we need to raise money and increase revenue to accomplish, funding a thing or doing a thing or paying for something to make it happen, right?

[00:04:33] Jason: But a lot of that comes down to, the mission and the values of an organization, the cultural values of an organization, as well as, how they measure their impact. Right. So, I guess I, in part, I would agree with that quote, because, in a large corporate organization design [00:05:00] many times is used to, improve the top or bottom line of the business. Design can be used to find ways to optimize. In experience so that it reduces costs, right? For the company or reduces time spent on doing a thing for the employee or customer, or it does a thing where it can create added value.

[00:05:28] Jason: Hey, I bought a pair of shoes. Wouldn't you also like those shorts that go with it and the socks and stuff, right? You can think about that and how a lot of technology works today, which is, related things that are presented to you to essentially just get you to open up your wallet a bit further, right?

[00:05:52] Jason: Nonprofits can be the same way. But they may be using it to get you to open up your wallet a bit further or [00:06:00] get you to engage or participate in something more. It's how you apply those abilities around design to what outcome, right? Like in a corporate world, you also have things like if it's a publicly traded company, there are shareholders who want to maximize the return and investment.

[00:06:22] Jason: And in a non profit space, sometimes you have executive directors or a board who also may have, though they're not, publicly, they're, they are, in a sense, a shareholder, right? Stakeholder, who may or may not come with their own agenda.

 They're similar yet different.

[00:06:42] Jason: I think regardless of the business entity, the model, I think in the field of design, what tends to happen is sometimes there's camps of shiny ball syndrome. Which is like, Oh, that's so [00:07:00] cool. We should totally build, design and build and do a thing over there. And, sometimes there's not enough of should we really do it?

[00:07:08] Jason: Just because we can, should be like, who is it

[00:07:11] Jason: benefit

[00:07:11] Aicila: calls that being, yeah, a friend of mine calls that being nerd sighted.

[00:07:15] Jason: nerds?

[00:07:15] Aicila: really like that.

[00:07:16] Jason: I like that.

[00:07:17] Jason: I've not heard that one before. That's pretty good. Totally. All right. So nerds, like we will need to refer to that from now on as nerd sided. So yeah, so you can be very nerd sided and ultimately, , It may or may not have any sort of added value and benefit. Maybe it, maybe the value benefits for the company, in either case, you have to try to strike the right balance between a customers need and intent and, what they're trying to do or the value or need your product or services trying to fill for them.

[00:07:50] Jason: And. How that happens, how it takes place from the company side of things. Design is always like this whole, in an experience [00:08:00] we could have, again, regardless, you could pick any everyday experience that you might have with any type of organization.

[00:08:07] Jason: And I bet you could come up with ones that feel really great. They feel like they get you. They feel like you, they met you where you're at. They feel like there's an appropriate kind of value exchange and there's probably a healthy tension, right? I don't really want to pay that much for a thing, but you know what, it's really worth it.

[00:08:24] Jason: And it's great product, great quality. Okay. And then there are ones where feels very friction heavy, right? It goes from a healthy tension to a friction and design sits in the midst of all that. Because, especially in the digital world, we have the opportunity to create an experience that either, strikes the right balance and a healthy tension and offers some surprise and delight in the experience, or if we don't pay attention to [00:09:00] it, or someone doesn't consider the experience and the interaction they have, you wind up creating some tension, some friction. Any number of different things that don't feel so great and translate to a negative kind of experience and maybe even a negative impact of something too.

[00:09:20] Aicila: Can you clarify when you talk about design, user experience. That I have an idea of what that includes in terms of like systems and if you could touch on a couple of points or generalizations that, for both my benefit and also anyone who's listening, I'd really appreciate that.

[00:09:38] Jason: Yeah. User experience design or UX, as some people refer to it as. is really a creative mindset, is the way I like to describe it. There are a variety of camps with different definitions of sorts, that have been, I'll say bastardized to some degree, but at its best, it's really just up [00:10:00] here in the spaces in between the mindset that you can a creative mindset that you can carry forward into solving problems.

[00:10:09] Jason: And enlisting a number of different, arts and sciences disciplines along the way. so in, in my field user experience, taking a user experience as a mindset and working through, let's say, project, I didn't take any kind of project there's a pretty abstract kind of question or challenge that you have.

[00:10:35] Jason: I want to be able to do a thing and I don't know how to answer it yet, how to solve it, right? But at the other side, you need to have, try to get an answer. There are a number of different things that are involved in employing throughout that, meaning, research and thinking about people who you're trying to solve the problem for.

[00:10:57] Jason: What are their motivations and goals and needs [00:11:00] and challenges and how do they do it today? How do they not do it today? How do they you know, does it even exist? You know thinking about You know how you use You know that those insights to create empathy for people's challenges

[00:11:16] Jason: Right and put yourself in their shoes so that as you go through especially in the digital world, a process in which you start to envision some sort of digital experience or even broader, it doesn't have to be digital again, right?

[00:11:31] Jason: That you start to think about, how do I communicate that with words, with graphics, with visuals, with objects, with, different things to, convey meaning and usage and organization, right? There's, information science, information architecture.

[00:11:53] Jason: There's a library science of organizing things, being able to find stuff.

[00:11:59] Aicila: [00:12:00] Mm-Hmm.

[00:12:00] Jason: and then there's a lot of really thoughtful design, detailed, fine tuning design, especially in the digital world that, you go through that is employed and then technology and all sorts of different things. But there's a handful of arts and sciences that are used.

[00:12:19] Jason: Throughout addressing a problem under the umbrella of user experience design. And that could be used, in the outcome does not necessarily mean it has to be technology. You can use all these different disciplines, to equate to a new process. A new physical product. Industrial design could be something that you might employ in the creative process.

[00:12:45] Jason: Exhibition design, etc. And that's why I say , the point of reference I talk to for the most part is digital. But I've been in this situation where we're taking these, Disciplines and that mindset and applying it to other things that are [00:13:00] not digital, right? Like

[00:13:02] Aicila: Mm-Hmm.

[00:13:03] Jason: a brand new service for someone, maybe a set of processes, steps, sequences, coming in to support or do something people in different skills, supporting it along the way.

[00:13:15] Jason: And not necessarily even anything digital.

[00:13:21] Aicila: In this world of UX for Good, what would you say success looks like for you

[00:13:28] Jason: Yeah,

[00:13:29] Jason: so,

[00:13:29] Aicila: like, you know, your vision of it.

[00:13:31] Jason: Sure. Yeah, so UX for Good, we started in 2011, and

[00:13:38] Jason: really the concept around that was to combine design thinking, user experience design, and social impact. And my co founder and I Jeff Lightner, I think, who was on a previous podcast of yours as well cocked at this idea of pairing some of the best and brightest designers [00:14:00] that we could find, and inviting them to participate in some pretty hairy social challenges that are in partnership with a non profit.

[00:14:10] Jason: And having worked with organizations in Chicago, then led us to working with like the Grammys and Music Cares around challenges in the music community in New Orleans,

[00:14:23] Aicila: Mm-Hmm.

[00:14:24] Jason: working with the Dalai Lama Center and advancing social emotional learning in the classroom in Vancouver, and then working with the Kigali Genocide Memorial in Rwanda around the visitor experience and how to further empower people who are having the experience there to go off and be essentially better humanitarians.

[00:14:47] Aicila: Mm

[00:14:47] Jason: so in the world of UX for good, applying this is a little bit different, right? So it's, this year where our project is called Yes, We [00:15:00] Cancer.

[00:15:01] Jason: And Yes, We Cancer, the outcome for what we're attempting to do is to expand the narrative around the cancer experience for families. the hypothesis is, to make a long story short, and I can go into further detail too if you'd like, but the hypothesis is that if we can change or expand the narrative to be more inclusive of the family's needs and experience at the moment and throughout when a child is diagnosed with cancer that would also open up additional funding and resources to be able to further support families.

[00:15:45] Jason: In this day and age, we've had tremendous strides, although there's a lot more to do,

[00:15:52] Jason: in, treatment of pediatric cancers, some more than others, and there's clearly not enough funding. You [00:16:00] know, yada, yada. There's lots there, right? Lots of problems. This is a big hairy problem, but one thing that is not being addressed is around the family specifically.

[00:16:12] Jason: And so what we're doing is we're taking a similar sort of process we would do for, clients we might work with, organizations we might work with to go through research and design and prototyping to come up interventions in the system to see how we might intervene to expand the narrative to better support families.

[00:16:36] Jason: We're not out to, recreate a brand new system so much so as, it, I mean, it's broken today between healthcare and hospitals and doctors and nurses and non profit organizations is everybody's doing the best they can. But because the perspective [00:17:00] is not necessarily as much on the family, there's a lot of gaps.

[00:17:05] Jason: And we don't want to create a map to in the, how to navigate the existing broken system so much so as how do we create interventions within it to expand the conversation and start to change the narrative to think about. Well, the families get cancer too, they get cancer, the kid gets chemo, but together they're experiencing the cancer diagnosis and the cancer treatment.

[00:17:31] Aicila: Yeah.

[00:17:32] Jason: it's just not, that perspective and that mindset is. fairly non existent.

[00:17:40] Aicila: Mm hmm. And yet logically intuitive, if you pause for even a moment to consider the impact of what that would be, if you're, if someone you love, especially your child, had something like that, of course, your family is experiencing that in the ways that [00:18:00] siblings and, career everything gets shifted.

[00:18:04] Jason: Yeah, it does. , and why this project? Well, this project is near and dear to my heart because we have, my wife and I have three kids, two boys, 12 and 10, and our daughter, who's seven. But when our daughter was two and a half years old, she was diagnosed with acute lymphoblastic leukemia. And, we spent years going through treatment and, you know, made it through.

[00:18:29] Jason: She's happy and healthy, second grader today, seven years old, as I said, and that's great. But the experience we had, lack of a better term, sucked. And it does suck. You can't, like, can't cure cancer. I'm not an oncologist. I'm not a You know, cancer researcher, I don't have millions and millions of dollars to sock into research and like, you know, you know, so, you know, [00:19:00] you, you, you sit there and you're like, well, what, what could I possibly do to give back to pay it forward, to, to look at what maybe I, I could, you know, do within the system or to the system to push it in a better direction.

[00:19:20] Jason: And so this is kind of that project for me. Families, experience it all very differently. There's a lot of variables at play. Some are better financially equipped to weather that storm because maybe both, both. Parents or maybe one of the parents work and their, employer is flexible or they have great health care and insurance or they have more money saved up or whatever it could be.

[00:19:53] Jason: But there's a number of different things that happen with that. But there are just as many people who can't make car [00:20:00] payments or struggle to put food on the table, not just for their kid who's going through cancer and their spouse, but the rest of their family, the other kids, or whomever they're supporting at large.

[00:20:10] Jason: And there's challenges around identity and who are they in this world now that their world has been turned upside down? There's challenges around constant trauma, big and small traumatic experiences throughout. And so there, there's a lot to deal with there. Not just finances.

[00:20:32] Jason: That is not something that is supported today. You have to navigate that as a family together our family was lucky to have a great community, friends and family to help but not everybody does we're very privileged to be able to make it out and through and still making through it through today with therapists and on, [00:21:00] on retainer for the most part and constant reflection.

[00:21:04] Jason: But there is an experience there that just doesn't end when the kid is done with the treatment, right? It is, , You have joined a club that you never knew existed. Even if you did, you'd never want to join.

[00:21:23] Aicila: yeah,

[00:21:24] Jason: it is a club that you now belong to for the rest of your life.

[00:21:30] Aicila: I get that. So you, what do you know? Can you relate to that moment or that experience? That created for you that I have to take an action is you're not, you and your family are not the only family to go through this. You're not the only tech person to go through this yet for you that translated into [00:22:00] I'm, I'm doing yes, we can answer.

[00:22:01] Aicila: I mean, probably not right away, but there was something, do you know how that moment of action occurred for you?

[00:22:09] Jason: Yeah, I'd say there's probably more than one kind of moment, like different kind of things that led up to it. I would just say so when my daughter was diagnosed in 2019, my wife, who's also a a nurse for quite a number of years in a pediatric a NICU nurse. so she was More medically equipped intellectually to be able to ask questions and think through and make the connections of like treatment stuff.

[00:22:40] Jason: Right. But me, I'm like, I have no idea. I have a hard time pronouncing that word,

[00:22:46] Jason: Whatever the drug name was and et cetera. Right. And so, you know, I was like, I don't even know what I can, what do I even do? You're thrust into this world, right? You get a diagnosis and they hand you a binder and you're like, [00:23:00] well, this seems.

[00:23:01] Jason: What the hell just happened here? And so mad at the world. I started roping in my students in this class I teach usually once a year as an adjunct. And I started bringing in pediatric cancer nonprofits into the classroom because they would, all these organizations would constantly show up in the clinic and introduce themselves.

[00:23:28] Jason: And they'd all have a swag bag of a blanket and a backpack and a notebook and toys and I'm just like, why? Like, I don't, I don't need any of this stuff. You know what I need is I need somebody to help me figure out insurance. In three months my daughter's gonna be kicked off our policy and I don't have group insurance and my wife doesn't have health care.

[00:23:49] Jason: We had short term insurance or how much, are we gonna be bankrupt? Are we gonna, like, what, what's all, what do I need to think about my kid, my other kids, the boys? [00:24:00] I kept turning to places and nobody could give me any real answers. But I kept meeting all these non profits and some more equipped to help me help and do things than others, but for the vast majority of them, seemingly constantly did the same sort of thing, wanted to know about your story, wanted to know how they can help and hand out some sort of gift card or, you know, get you tickets to an event or a thing to kind of make the pain go away for a day, which is all helpful, right?

[00:24:30] Jason: All good intentions of people responding to broken system, but we don't need more of those. What we need to do is

[00:24:38] Jason: address the problems of the system and the gaps. And so as I went through that years past and, or the past five years, have now worked through that class. We've brought in over almost 30 pediatric cancer and cancer related nonprofits doing research design and [00:25:00] innovation projects with them.

[00:25:01] Jason: Primarily because I wanted to pay it forward because we, our family benefited and my kids benefited from many of the things these organizations have done. So if I could help make them, you know, use our collective skills to help them make their dollars and cents go further. Awesome. Right. I didn't want to start a new foundation.

[00:25:24] Jason: That's not what I'm out to do. There's as I said, enough of those. And so through all that work, looking back, just realized that this is just it's the same thing every year that these organizations are doing. Some are better equipped or, or better at operating organizations than others.

[00:25:43] Jason: Some psychosocial sort of things, some don't, ? And so. It's, just a general problem with , there's something else we need to do here. And how could I use what I have at my disposal, like a nonprofit and design [00:26:00] to look further, to reflect upon it, to be curious and experiment with , well, how in the hell could we do something different?

[00:26:07] Jason: So that's, yes, we cancer. You know, roping co founder Jeff into it and starting to unpack well, where, where could we focus if we, if we deployed UX for good as an organization and this model of design and social impact against a crazy challenge like this.

[00:26:31] Aicila: I mean, that sounds like a worthy endeavor. Definitely.

[00:26:36] Jason: yet, so we'll see.

[00:26:39] Aicila: I don't know if you're a Star Trek fan, but in one of the, I want to say it's in the new Picard series, they have a group of Romulan nuns or something that they're whole, motivation. They'll be a warrior for your cause as long as it's a lost cause. That's their that's their [00:27:00] criteria.

[00:27:00] Aicila: It's like, if they sign up with you, it's because they're clear it's a lost cause. I'm like, I like that actually.

[00:27:05] Aicila: So we're the endeavor and you know, whatever happens, you'll at least discover things. And I think it's always so positive to be able to take and experience. I don't believe in the like, bad things happen for a reason personally.

[00:27:19] Aicila: I feel more strongly that we can take any experience we've had and use it for good and channel whatever happened into a positive outcome or a hope for someone else. I love that as a, as an approach because I can't even imagine, How the complexity of the experiences that you and your family had.

[00:27:40] Jason: it's complex. Unlike anything that I've ever experienced outside of, trying to fix your internet service or something. I'm kidding. I'm joking. Everybody's happy.

[00:27:50] Jason: I'm

[00:27:52] Aicila: That's like, right

[00:27:53] Jason: filing your taxes. Yeah, right. Yeah, it's, you know, [00:28:00] and there's, and, and, Listen, so many, there's so many organizations that are involved in, helping kind of pay it forward.

[00:28:09] Jason: So many of these non profits are started by moms and dads and other family members and community members who just, Care and get it right and so that they you know start a thing right an organization And maybe they know how to run an organization and build one and maybe they don't and they learn as they go that's great But it's also an indicator by which that when there are more and more of these That there's an indicator that there's a big gap in the system because they are out there providing things that should already exist

[00:28:43] Aicila: Yeah.

[00:28:44] Jason: system itself.

[00:28:46] Aicila: Yeah. So one thing that you mentioned about a topic you'd be interested in exploring, which I'm How I'm excited to hear about is the concept of with not for I, I [00:29:00] feel like, that's a, it's helpful for people to have a sense of what you mean by that.

[00:29:06] Jason: Yeah. So with not for, in the world of design, you have the ability to create things, and you can create from a point of reference of what you know, and put something out there to try to solve a problem, right. It's almost like, I don't want to say God like complex, right. But like some people have that.

[00:29:31] Jason: I don't I like to think I don't have an ego and the folks I work with also don't, but there are some in the field who just were like, here it is done. I solved it. Right? Like, but in reality, and sometimes companies and organizations are like that too, by the way, in reality, and I'm sure you could think of, We could probably sit here all day and think of ones that work that way and others that don't, but in reality, design is a very collaborative and creative process [00:30:00] and is spent a lot, you spend a lot of time thinking about others and in service of others .

[00:30:07] Jason: With not for is a a phrase that I like to use to describe how I approach work. And what I mean by it is this, is there is a process you go through as a designer of a creative process, typically of a crazy challenge and then a solution, right? And There's a method to the madness of sorts, right?

[00:30:33] Jason: That's one part. Another part is, there's a growth process that happens typically for the people that you're working with, right? so let's say that you're, you've been asked to help an organization or work through a problem there's a certain level and type of like how you engage them, you don't want, what you want is them to understand the world that you [00:31:00] live in and have just as much empathy and understanding for the people that are affected by what you're creating.

[00:31:06] Jason: And if you're out to change behavior out to provide something that didn't exist in support of somebody in a better way. All that is really great stuff. But if you're not bringing these people that you're doing the work with, right. In collaboration through that, you, it's a missed opportunity for them to understand and come to a realization of like, Oh my gosh, I can totally think about this in a different way.

[00:31:30] Jason: All these different situations where we just made up an answer or we've decided on what it is ourselves. We have this opportunity to bring people into the fold. To understand them, to also get feedback from them, to also incorporate thinking, and engage people so that they themselves, can be, forever changed, right?

[00:31:53] Jason: So that's the second pillar. And the third part to it all is really about the team that goes through this [00:32:00] process. I don't have all the skills and abilities to create a thing on my own. And so it's usually done with a team with complementing skills and abilities. And the experience you create as a team is just as important.

[00:32:14] Jason: To be able to learn from each other, to grow from each other, and respect each other's ideas and challenges, right? And challenge each other's thinking to create something really amazing at the end that does a thing, right? Supports somebody to do a thing, creates a behavior, or distinguishes a behavior, or, whatever that outcome is.

[00:32:33] Jason: And so to me, all those three elements are really this concept of with, not for, right? It's, it, you have to create a level and type of engagement. Across all these different pieces in a way that will then, help increase your chances the likelihood for success, right?

[00:32:53] Aicila: hmm. Mm

[00:32:54] Aicila: hmm.

[00:32:55] Jason: not it's not a short term kind of thinking, right? That's [00:33:00] a longer term view of stuff.

[00:33:02] Aicila: Mm hmm. Right? . This came out in, I want to say, 2013. The Stanford Innovation Review did a report on collective impact, and I was part of a community in Boulder County that, followed the blueprint that they had in that to, to work on what could we do in 10 years, to affect the way that L-G-B-T-Q youth experienced the Boulder County school system and environment. And as part of that, one of the things that we talked about was that. If we looked at it as, oh, those poor kids, right, that for them, then it became in certain ways, false, right? , because actually what it was they were experiencing a disproportionate burden from a social problem that the community hadn't properly addressed and by framing it in that perspective. It also made it really clear [00:34:00] they got to be participants in the solution because it wasn't for them. Of course, we wanted to provide support for the unfair burden they were bearing. And, it wasn't about them and their identity. It was about recognizing the collective impact. And then the other thing they talk about in the review was the importance of bringing in all the sectors and the distinction between what you're talking about, this large social challenge

[00:34:26] Aicila: really requires this collective impact. You have to have NGOs and government and businesses, which often get left out of the mix, as well as community individuals and faith groups, all coming to the table with an understanding of how this plays out in their area of awareness and then working together to create a group. Approach

[00:34:47] Aicila: and as opposed to what often happens is people like concrete solutions and those really work for 100 people lost their homes. We need 300 meals. That's how a couple people can just go get that done. But this larger [00:35:00] thing, it's time. It's investment. It's bringing in A huge cross section of the community and making sure they really feel that sense of investment in this as a community issue. And then also what you're talking about in terms of also creating that we're in this together. It's not because we're trying to fix something for you.

[00:35:18] Aicila: We're in trying to create a better community experience.

[00:35:22] Jason: Absolutely. And you can take that as an example in let's say a corporate world too, where we have some clients and, they're going through a big, effort to create a new digital platform for something, let's say, right? And in

[00:35:36] Jason: that case, they have a small design team. And so they've asked us for some help.

[00:35:42] Jason: And so not only do we have to create the stuff at the end of the day that is going to get built, to support their customers, but at the same point in time, we have to demonstrate the value of design. And the things that it can bring to the table for [00:36:00] the various stakeholders across sales and marketing and corporate relations and product and et cetera, right?

[00:36:06] Jason: And bring them along because they have input in things. And at the same point in time, we need to be mindful that the things that we're creating in order for those things to not become quickly a liability and continue to be an asset to the organization. We have to also help develop the structure, the skills, the abilities for.

[00:36:27] Jason: As an external consultant, the, the structure skills and abilities for the employees of that organization to be able to support the thing that we're jointly creating together. Even in the example like that in a for profit example, there is that ability of, with not for the ability to be mindful that how do you create something and not also create a dependency upon the people who are the creators, but the people who are going to support it longer term. Right? So in the case of the community that you mentioned, right, like [00:37:00] the, the responsibility lies in whoever's helping to facilitate that approach to move through and ensuring that whatever kind of solution that you identify together, That there's identification of who's going to support it.

[00:37:14] Jason: And do they have the skills and abilities to support it, a solution,? And if not, how do you go and get those skills and abilities or resources or whatever it might be that the solution requires so that it continues to sustain.

[00:37:28] Jason: This is a challenge and has been for a number of years, especially like 10 years ago when hackathons.

[00:37:34] Jason: We're such a huge thing. They're still fairly, prevalent, but I don't know if you're familiar with that space, but Hey, let's bring in a nonprofit organization for an afternoon for a day, . And 50 developers or 50 designers, and let's just dig into their problem and create a website for them or create an app for them.

[00:37:54] Jason: And then let's all walk away. You probably done more harm than good because You [00:38:00] created a thing, right? That the moment you left, , is the value has decreased because that organization may or may not have the skills, abilities, or understanding of how to actually manage and maintain the thing that gets created.

[00:38:13] Jason: You've automatically created a depreciating asset, right? I mean, it's, so it's, but it's,

[00:38:22] Aicila: Thanks.

[00:38:22] Jason: but that you didn't do like you, the problem with a hackathon like that is that was a. do it to you, not with you. And so that's, , that's a challenge.

[00:38:34] Aicila: When I see it a lot in folks that are specialized that, and I think it's a human experience, we all tend to dismiss and devalue the knowledge that we have. And so as in the hackathon space, , the well intentioned programmers aren't really recognizing, even if they have an intellectual awareness of it, that part of the reason people need this is they're lacking some knowledge and skill [00:39:00] that's intuitive or second nature to that person, and so I find that a lot when I work in contracting with my clients is helping people , to identify the things that they just think are like, everybody knows because then you design with the idea. And that's what you're talking about when you work with someone, you can get a sense of oh. I didn't know that was a special thing I knew. I just thought everybody knew that. And then you can actually recreate something that's going to speak to the need they have and, the skill level that they've developed in that area. Cause they obviously focus somewhere else and we're very highly specialized world. Where, I had a woman on the podcast came out a couple weeks ago. And she is a lawyer who does legal education. So when you're starting a business and you need someone to help you and identify what type of lawyer you need or what, what kinds of [00:40:00] contracts you need.

[00:40:00] Aicila: So before you go pay someone. 500 or 700 an hour, you can talk to her and she can give you a sense of this is where to go. Because a lot of times people don't even know. I don't even know. I know I need a lawyer. I don't even know what kind. And it sounds like similar to that. , I think it comes up a lot because we're so specialized that working with people, getting that empathy for their experiences. I think also recognizing we each have some unique, helpful knowledge that we don't necessarily think is all that important. Will you tell me some advice you've received that has influenced the way you approach your work?

[00:40:38] Jason: Yeah, I think one that I always tell a lot especially to students as I reflect on my career is I remember, maybe a handful of years into my career when I was at a corporate, this corporate organization as a designer. And I was learning a [00:41:00] lot, super excited about what I was learning. , I was learning to become a designer and a strategist.

[00:41:05] Jason: And, we were going through a very significant, highly visible project that was transforming kind of the nature of the organization and such. And so I got a chance to present to some executives, small, little team of executives. And, there was one of the other main stakeholders who was there was a director at the time in our, in the department I was in.

[00:41:33] Jason: And there was a question by, from one of the executives and they asked how I would, how would we approach blah, blah, blah. And I methodically talked about the process and, I was very passionate about it. And I it didn't really deliver in terms of an understanding to the executive and answering their question.

[00:41:51] Jason: , and then after the meeting, the director, That I knew there who had, much more wisdom [00:42:00] and experience than I had in my career at that point, pulled me to the side and , , we chatted about the presentation, talked about what went well, and then she was like, and Jason you are very passionate.

[00:42:14] Jason: You're very bright. But you need to stop being so fucking dog dogmatic.

[00:42:24] Jason: That was a quote, right? I was like, excuse me? What? She's like, you have to realize that there isn't only ever one approach to take to solving this kind of a thing, whether you're a designer or not a designer. And that if you're going to be talking to executives around the design process and how to go through it, that like, they're going to care more about the outcome and how to arrive at the outcome.

[00:42:49] Jason: They care less about the process necessarily. And so that was a really important thing for me to think about. How can I continue to be more pragmatic in my life? Because [00:43:00] as a professional and as a. type A kind of person, you can easily get lost in the, dogmatic side of the process and perfection

[00:43:15] Jason: and so that was a big kind of piece, I'd say one of the larger pieces of advice, in my career to be more pragmatic, which kind of, I think opened up the door to many other things, including conversations with like my co founder Jeff, When we were first starting UX for good and asking me if I was, if I was going to do this or not do this , and, yeah.

[00:43:41] Jason: So I, I think I think about that moment a lot, actually in my career.

[00:43:47] Aicila: I appreciate people who are willing to give you the real deal. , even when you're, I feel like the world is better when people just say, Hey, this is the

[00:43:56] Jason: Yeah. Right.

[00:43:58] Aicila: can agree, but it's so much more [00:44:00] helpful than just like, I can tell something.

[00:44:03] Jason: Yeah, especially when you're so young, I think I was like 25 or something like that, earlier on in my career , and, , the, the authenticity and, transparency, just, she wasn't angry. She wasn't, she was just like, you know what, she had been very successful at a management consulting company before she came to the, into the corporate world there.

[00:44:28] Jason: Everybody sought out her advice, and she gave that, to me freely on that, and I was like, that was awesome. It was just like, that was really great.

[00:44:41] Aicila: so how do you stay inspired or how do you recharge?

[00:44:51] Jason: How do I do that? I recharge from stuff like what I'm doing now, this Yes We Cancer. , the opportunity to give back is [00:45:00] how I recharge too.

[00:45:02] Jason: I try to. As best I can strike a good balance of the work I do as well, so it's not all one kind in one industry because I like to learn and I like to see, I'm kind of a systems thinker so I like to see different patterns and that gets me excited and the more I can connect the dots of one thing I'm doing over here to another thing I'm doing over there, I get excited, right?

[00:45:28] Jason: About that. That gives me some energy. And then, I don't necessarily believe in work life balance, meaning it's not just like one second, you're in work mode and 20 seconds later, you're not like, there's a rhythm, right? And I think you have to figure out what your right rhythm is kind of akin to, where and when do you have your best energy and best thinking during the day?

[00:45:58] Aicila: [00:46:00] Yeah.

[00:46:00] Jason: Rhythm or patterns it's an ongoing process for me to be honest, it's like, I need to step away, like I'm not doing anything helpful here because I'm just toast.

[00:46:13] Aicila: It's harder when you love what you do. I work with people that I respect and admire doing things that I enjoy, that I'm good at to work on projects that I believe in. And that was my goal when I started my business. And then, and I have that and it's amazing, but it also means that I have to very deliberately say, and the workday is done because I found if I go as long as I want to too many days in a row, I am. Kind of depleted in a way that's, it's weird because it's not like I'm unhappy or anything. I've just maybe used those synapses too much or something. . They need a little pause, but it's so interesting to me because it's not, I want to be done. It's no, if I want to do this well, I have to be so that I can come back to it more effectively.

[00:46:58] Aicila: And give it the best that I have to [00:47:00] give it.

[00:47:00] Jason: That's what I'm saying. I think it comes, of a, more of a rhythm. Sometimes it's faster paced, sometimes it's slower. Sometimes it's, you know, like, so I, I, you know, I, I just, I don't think that there's just like a switch for me. There's not a switch. I used to try to the switch and never good at that.

[00:47:21] Aicila: And it sounds like you found ways to stay recharged. I talk about sustainability a lot in terms of the entrepreneur. If it matters to you today, it's going to matter to you tomorrow. So how are you thinking about your whole experience? And if your family, friends, hobbies, aren't getting any attention, you are going to be depleted.

[00:47:39] Aicila: So how do you keep that overall picture going? And my experience of myself and the people that I work with is everybody has a slightly different way of that and rhythm. That's why I like to ask people how they do it so that folks can also see there's not a way, so find your way and make sure that if you start getting cranky with everybody, you might need a nap.

[00:47:59] Aicila: That's what I'm saying.[00:48:00]

[00:48:00] Jason: Yeah. Pay attention to yourself. It's not a, it's not a, once and done, right? Like it during

[00:48:08] Aicila: No,

[00:48:08] Jason: of the year we're more or less busy with kids and activities, or you're outside or inside more, or, you have a lull in client stuff or you have a craziness of business or , so it's, to me, it's more of a rhythm.

[00:48:24] Jason: how do you take advantage of those opportunities? When you have the energy, when you have the time or when you need to unplug and take a break.

[00:48:32] Aicila: Yeah. And I, for folks who are listening, how do they learn more, follow you, get in touch,

[00:48:40] Jason: You can find me on LinkedIn. It's always a good spot. You can visit my personal site, jasonulasik. com and that has links out to Inzovu, which is the design collective, and UX for Good, which is the nonprofit. And [00:49:00] then yesweecancer. com is the kind of just the website for the project that we're taking on this year.

[00:49:05] Jason: So those are all the ways I think you could find me.

[00:49:09] Aicila: Thank you so much. And I appreciate you taking the time to chat with us today.

[00:49:12] Jason: Yeah. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate the invite.

[00:49:17] Aicila: And thanks for listening, everybody.