So let's talk about identity politics!
2018 0705 Episode 10 Tribal Rights- Link to Transcript here or read below.
Hi and welcome to the BiCurean podcast. My name is Erik and I'm Aicila. And this week our topic is well I'll tell you our title first: Tribal Rights. And the question we-that kind of brought it up was: What's happening with identity politics these days? %HESITATION And we -we're getting a little fancy because we know that this show is gonna air around Pride. And on June 28, 1969 the Stonewall riots happened. And they sort of kicked off that modern LGBT movement. That's what Pride celebrates. And we started thinking about well let's make it bigger than just one topic. And that's where we sort of got to identity politics. Yeah I think identity politics right now is a very hot topic in general because, %HESITATION as we were talking about for the show set up so much of the political movements going on right now are about very specific identities. %HESITATION No longer are people jumping into the mass flow of one party versus the other. But they're looking at how their very very specific and unique experience and -and how they define themselves affects the world and- and how the world affects them. Right and- and so one of the things that we started looking at is how do these concepts benefit or harm us- as a nation and a culture. And so we are going to share some of the things that we came up with. And we're gonna surprise each other with some thoughts and questions, cause we love to do that. Yes. *laughter*%HESITATION I think you have, start there. So first point, reading from our show notes here. "The laden phrase 'identity politics' has come to signify a wide range of political activity and theorizing founded in the shared experience of injustice of members of certain social groups. Rather than organizing solely around belief systems programmatic manifestos or party affiliation, identity political formations typically aim to secure the political freedom of a specific constituency marginalized within its larger context. Members of that constituency assert or reclaim ways of understanding their directiveness that challenge dominant oppressive characterizations with the goal of greater self determination." That's from the Stanford review so that's partially why it's maybe a little academically dense. It is academically dense, it was a lot of long words. Sorry about that. And %HESITATION ah- one of the reasons that I pulled that particular bit out. And and I I curtailed a lot of it %HESITATION it's a pretty long sort of philosophical and academic review of the concept of identity politics. %HESITATION I wanted to start with something that was a little bit less reactive. Right now if you do a search for identity politics you find a lot of articles that are how it has failed us or it's the only way to go. Once again it's very politicized. And polarized. Highly polarized. And so I wanted to start with something a little more foundational that actually kind of addressed where the concept maybe had some of its roots. And the reason that it took hold right was that what what occurred for a lot of these people, that so like the LGBT movement or black people or women, is that they found themselves feeling a sense of being left out of the larger cultural narrative. And so they felt a need to kind of assert, "This is our experience. This is happening.". And they did have that need. That was a real need. I mean we can look at certain things that happened, that really were the basis of that. Such as um, you know, the civil rights movement in the 1960s. No matter if you were black or white or living in the south or up in the north or on the west coast, it was hard not to look at that and see you know a perspective of a marginalized population trying to assert themselves. And gain some freedoms and gain some rights %HESITATION against a society that didn't really know how to react to it. Well and one of the -one of the things that I listened to as part of this is an Economist podcast. They- they do these little short twenty minute snippets on different questions. And this one woman was speaking about some of these concepts. And what I really appreciated that she talked about is that part of what happened is that for a long time we -we believed that we didn't need to assert the smaller group situations. We believed we didn't have tribalism, which is kind of really closely connected to identity politics, because we had this really dominant tribe that you know we call being white. It is a little more complicated than that. And we don't need to - to try and unpack that in this moment. However, what happened was that as people started challenging this dominant tribe by oh saying actually these other things live and exist and have need to be given some room to breathe. That's when people started like oh this is identity politics or this is scary. And it's really just that the people who were being silenced ignored actually started talking. So wasn't that there wasn't this happening before. And the other thing she points out that I think is really different is that obviously these groups flourished. She called them sub- that she said we've always had these cultural subgroups that and they've flourished. However, they also all had a primary, for the most part, commitment to we're all Americans. The ideal of being American was still kind of she called it a connective tissue. See I remember that in the eighties growing up. And - and I think the Cold War helped to propagate that. Cause at the end of the day we were a tribe of Americans against a tribe of communists. And that did connect everybody. And so to a certain extent, it felt like you could be other things but what we needed to be most, to survive, %HESITATION and I I I recall this just as my experience like- it looking back. It didn't actually define what made us all survive but we had something to rally around. It was the connective tissue %HESITATION of being we are we are Americans. Flying a flag didn't cause you any problems. I mean I remember one of the biggest things in the eighties that I can recall was things like flag burning, right? Because people were trying to determine if that was against being American. Or against free speech, right? Like there was a big hullabaloo about it. Right. But I mean you know like there was other issues obviously. There was gay rights, civil rights you know for the black you know population. And -and things like that were all still going on. But like the big news was, we're all Americans at least. Right we have this in common, we had this to connect us. And this ay- I think her name is Amy Chua who was speaking in this podcast, one of the things that she brought up that I thought was a really interesting perspective, is there's been a shift in how we and, especially actually this is more the liberal progressive community has propagated this particular negative approach. Which is we look at our history and we -we acknowledge and recognize that say the founding of our country was built on a lot of different kinds of classism and racism and sexism. And so the the liberal thi- thing is our -our ideals are all a lie, right? And her perspective is that's actually really damaging to us as a culture. Instead of saying, we're failing to live up to our ideals. We maybe even didn't live up to them when we wrote them down and said these are our ideals. In fact, we know we didn't. However, in a lot of ways, the point of an ideal is to be something that is what we're striving for to be- to be what we're looking towards, not to be something we're doing right now. Yeah, and I think that's where a lot of you know even- even looking at things like, you know what the country was founded on and all of that. And -and where we're coming down to it you know. %HESITATION Gay marriage finally after years and years of battling, it was finally determined that it was constitutionally allowed. That there was nothing in the constitution that really should give anybody the right to ban it, right? It took years and battling and all of that sort of thing. So I think fundamentally the ideals that we were founded on, work. But when we try to kinda go against that and it just takes political battling and all of that sort of thing. The way it's eventually gonna go is that what's in the constitution, I do believe, will bear out to allow all of these freedoms. Trans gendered freedom to choose the bathroom they want to use. That's gonna be I feel the next big one. There was a- a- a couple weeks ago, there was a big news story about somebody winning against the school that had banned them from using the different bathroom in- in Virginia. And %HESITATION it took so long he's- he's graduated now. But case in point that- that school, it was a federal judge that decided it. So now the next logical step would be to appeal it up, you know, it could go to the Supreme Court. And guess what's probably going to happen. They're not going to find any reason, based on constitutional rights, to ban that. So in some ways what we were founded on is working. Cause we have gay marriage. We have abortion rights- the the right to have an abortion. You know that sort of thing, all backed up, by the court, as being constitutionally allowed. Yeah and -and that, I think that one of the things that I know kind of comes up for people. And, it's I think a little bit of the tension here, is- is the things that- that created a different movements: the women's movement, Black Lives Matter, %HESITATION Immigration Movement. Is there are real injustices that exist. And the the challenge of things like implicit bias, it's very difficult to explain that to someone who is, you know when I think about people that I know, -Most people don't realize they're doing it, it's sort of the point. -Right, they don't know that they're doing it. They also, and I feel like some of this is how we approach these things is one of the reasons that I'm really committed to the work that we're doing, is there's a lot of public shaming. There's a lot you know- there's name calling and public shaming. And well- well it would be great if everybody was evolved enough that when somebody calls them out, in a very shameful way, they could respond by recognizing their error. The reality is most of us aren't. Most of us get defensive and we- we dig in deeper we double down. And- and so finding ways, if we really want to connect with people, if we really want to actually heal these divides, we actually have to learn how to listen to each other. Or talk to each other and how to say things, like you should be tolerant and let me give you examples of why. Rather than telling people tolerance is what you must do because that almost sounds attacking to a lot of people. Well and and help people to understand why they care, right? Like a lot of times- or or in some cases why they shouldn't care- or why they shouldn't care that's a- and I think that's %HESITATION equally valid. One of the things, and I think it was the same podcast, that this woman was talking about was a lot of times the people that are sort of digging in to maybe their prejudice or the- the not politically correct verbiage or whatever. Some of it is their embarrassed. They've been shamed for saying and doing the wrong thing. And maybe they were trying. And-and this isn't to excuse obvious egregious abusive behavior or anything like that. It's simply to say that if we- if we assume immediately that somebody doesn't care. And then we shame them or attack them. We've lost the opportunity to give them a real chance to learn and grow. And for us to learn and grow with them. This is is a point I've been making for years. The last couple since Trump was running and then got elected. The Trump supporters out there- it is a mistake to assume they're all jerks. It's a huge mistake. Right, but they probably have felt, rightly or wrongly, marginalized because they had certain things that they believed. And guess what? Suddenly somebody who wasn't particularly racist feels like now they're part of a larger group of people who aren't really racist but aren't really against protecting America or whatever. And and that's like the worst thing that Trump has brought out. Because he said, no we don't have to take that anymore. Well we've sort of created a world where they had to take something that they're now saying we don't want to take anymore. Yeah. And- and that's where my social justice you know bug comes from is finding a way to get people to to realize that you know look this isn't about hating Mexicans or black people or anything like that. Like I said most of those people, if you really confront them on it, are not going to say, I just hate that race or that group. Well and that's the implicit bias as well. Like they don't necessarily know, and I know from my own experience you know before I came out to myself as being attracted to women. %HESITATION People would talk about, actually it was after, people talk about homophobia. And I would say things like, you know I'm- I'm concerned that maybe I'm gonna raise my kids, they might end up attracted to people of their gender like me. And someone was like that's "internalized homophobia". And I- I couldn't even connect to that. I don't even- I didn't even understand they were talking about. I get it now. But at the time it was a short hand that these people understood. And they weren't wrong, that was actually what was happening. However the words they were using and the way they were talking to me about it made actually no sense at all to me. I was just expressing a concern. Cause I had to go through a process. I had to go through a process of actually accepting myself and grieving the loss of a life I thought I was gonna have. And learning to embrace the freedom that came with knowing who I was and living the life that I discovered. Right. And in the middle of that asking a question and having someone say, "You're scared of yourself." Of course I was. But there was- there was no way I could rationally engage what they were talking about. Yeah. So I feel like that's maybe some of my compassion for folks that- that react to how we approach things from this- from our liberal verbiage comes from just remembering that it didn't feel like it applied. I didn't even understand what they were saying. Right. so I've- I've- I see that confusion or that kind of like what you're talking about of course not racist. And from their perspective and what they're going through and who they are, they're not. Because they don't get the internalized stuff or the implicit bias or the institutionalized stuff that they're a part of. Yeah. It's- it's- it's a very big point and it kind of leads to what we were really getting down to with what we wanted to cover in this topic %HESITATION which is that what it's done is it's tribalized groups even more. And there's so many tribes right now. %HESITATION One of the articles, you know, and we're using tribal tribalization and tribes and the tribal mentality because I think that really defines what identity politics has really become. Well and it's also um it is that, and just to add on to that, that it is also the- the instinct by which we create these groups, like we are instinctively drawn as human social creatures to connect with tribes. Yeah. That is that is a it was a survival mechanism and it is a deeply ingrained instinct. And and it's also, I honestly think it's a way to navigate the chaotic world we live in. We live in a very large, diverse, information- heavy world. And connecting to a tribe helps is kind of focus down where we're going to put our energy, our time, our attention, our interests- whatever that is. Right. And- and that's where I- I seem to feel like the way that we are engaging now, you know it used to be we're Americans. I mean after World War II we were Americans. Through the Cold War for sure. And, you know, and yes there was things like the Civil Rights movement and- and Gay Rights movements that came up. %HESITATION There was the whole hippie movement that happened in California. That was a thing. I think it was more than California. I feel like Woodstock was on the other side of the country. I you know I always think of that movement as starting in like the Berkeley northern California area. And it did spread from there but I mean it was such a part of that society. You know everything from Allen Watson & Timothy Leary and everybody all hanging out out there doing way too many drugs. And exploring human consciousness and stuff. But it became it's own, you know, movement and tribe. And people identified themselves as a "hippie". Right. You know, they were happy to be that way. And then it started splintering more and more especially I think in the eighties and nineties when people started really looking at it. And- and now we're down to you know certain groups like so specific what they're into. And their entire political position revolves around one single topic. Can I say I love this %HESITATION student %HESITATION at Harvard the beginning of the year %HESITATION wrote an article in the, it's called the Harvard Crimson, and I just want you to read a couple things that she said. Cause I thought it was really powerful and it summarizes your point. So and- and I was actually getting to where this would actually have some relevance to people listening. %HESITATION I used to believe in identity politics because it told me you and your experience matter. Your identity gives you authority. Your beliefs can't be invalidated because your identity can't be invalidated. This logical leap was empowering to take. And she continues, I realized that I had lowered the standard of conservation -of a conversation by opening with appeals to our race. I was not giving reasons why we should act. I was merely arguing that external factors obligated us to act. But arguments following the logic of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" make for half hearted ally ship at best. She was- she's %HESITATION comes from an Asian family and she was talking about talking to her parents about the importance of the Black Lives Matter movement. And just how that conversation wasn't effective when she approached it from a simple neither of us is white perspective. That she needed something more, something larger than two tribes, if you will. Right. Which is that larger tribe that we're talking about. Like that American idealism of civil discourse or opportunity or freedom- whatever it is that is our connective tissue. We've lost it. Right. Or strained it. Well and I think that's, you know, that's kind of the point that I was getting to is that as we have splintered, people are finding out that you know the I' m gay and I care only about the gay things, you know that are going on politically right now. Whether it's maybe, you know, I've run into people that are gay and fighting for gay rights and aren't even necessarily strongly opinionated about the trans gendered thing. Cause it's not directly related to their experience their personal you know thing. And it's like but there's things in common there and really we're talking about the root of the same issue. It's not necessarily. People are so splintered and focused in on what they're doing and- and like you said with this trying to figure out a way that it's like more than just well- we're both not white. Well an interesting historical note is that the identity of being gay was actually started in America. There was no identity before that. And it was started because of trans people. Or specifically male bodied people who identified as female applying to be in the military and being rousted out. I think the definition was pervert. And that's where it started as a like legal identity. So it's just kind of interesting that- and once again like Stonewall riots were %HESITATION trans women primarily and leather folk. And both the leather community and the trans community were absolutely left behind in the LGBT movement- LG movement. And and see and that's so and again you know some of our personal perspectives on this and why we're kind of doing this project and doing these shows and the point is to really get people to start looking at the broader picture of a lot of this and how you know splintering and focusing is kind of negative. %HESITATION I'm- I'm personally involved in movements right now of the bi community to get more recognition and less rejection from the LGBT. Cause the B's in there but trust me it's a it's a letter that people say and don't necessarily support. And- and it's very much a position where you know if you're the B you truly can end up not living in either world successfully. Whether it's the gay or the straight communities. They've done studies on like- the ones that I've seen have been more on bisexual women. And it's sort of like you know there's straight women's drinking rates and then you know gay women have slightly higher drinking rates and then bisexual women have significantly higher drinking rates. Things like that where, those are all signs of social isolation maybe we talked about that no one ever thinks. And they- there was a really interesting I think it was a Minni- Minneapolis there is a group that was sort of comparing the ways in which the bisexual community faces a different kind of challenge. And it's they mapped it to being similar to being biracial. That you don't belong anywhere. And there's a way in which that can feel super isolating. Yeah, it ab- absolutely is a thing and so as I become more involved in essentially what I would call Bi- rights and Bi- recognition, it's almost more frustrating because now I'm sucked into that identity politics vortex. Well I think you're bringing something that's really important, which is we seek a tribe or a we seek that identity connection to combat feelings of isolation. And our- our- we live in this very big country has a lot going on and it's- it's actually a completely natural instinct to seek that out. And I actually don't think that on its own is the problem. We need that. You need to have people that get where you're coming from that you don't have to educate. You don't have to explain everything to. It's when that becomes the only view you can live in. When the only you can live in is "I'm Bi.". And- and the rest of the view, whatever it is, your com- your neighborhood or your country, or your commitment to justice. If- if you can't live in also those larger views, I think that's when we start to lose something. But we need that. We need those moments of feeling like we can just be with people who get us and that we get. Well and- and that's what you know the movement's really about is really just getting acceptance and visibility. %HESITATION And connection. And- and the connection but then also to turn it into now, you know, people who identify as Bi can then participate in the larger scope of the LGBTQ movement. Instead of trying to work their way into it, they can just be a part of it. And so if you are a social justice warrior and you are trying to get out there and make a difference you know it's almost like you know having having to mow your own lawn before you can even leave your street you know to go and try to make a bigger difference curating the rest of the neighborhood's lawn. It's almost frustrating, right? Well I-I so there there's a court thing happening to try and get- In 1975 this woman was a Boulder County Clerk in ah Boulder County and she issued five same sex marriage licenses. And her name is Clela Rorex. And she is an example of everything we ever wanna look at. In that she was a straight woman. She was a single mom. She had run for office because of the civil rights movement. She was like and the women's movement, she was like oh, people are saying if we want to change things we need to run for office. And she was like I guess maybe I should do that. So she went out and did it. And then these guys came in, wanted a marriage license, and she kind of paused for a minute, she says well of course that why wouldn't you be able to have one, there's nothing against that. And she called the DA to make sure it was okay. And he goes, yeah there's nothing against it. She didn't have gay friends, that she knew of. She didn't -there was nothing in it for her personally. It was simply that - she wasn't fighting a fight - she just was being aware of like okay yeah, she was being fair minded. There's nothing in the law book that says I can't do this. Right and she was just being fair minded like %HESITATION well naturally we'll do this. And I -I met her several years ago through my work and and her son said that you know one of the things that was really eye opening for them as a family was the -the death threats and hate threats. Like she became a huge ally to the community because that one simple moment in her life, of just saying well it seems reasonable to me, turned her into a target in a variety of ways. And -and that's I mean I think that's also an example of why a lot of people don't stand up. Cause they don't want to be a target. And -but she could see beyond her tribe, right? Like she could live both in her tribe saying, you know I'm I'm here for women's rights you know and she didn't think to herself oh I can't risk women's rights and and my success because these people want a certificate. She just thought, well that's how we're doing it right like? I mean it's the basic premise when -when soldiers are in war and they're in the trenches or they're in dangerous situations the bonds they form are very strong. And it's sort of like that in real life suddenly you're thrown in with allies you didn't even know you would be allies with. And you're fighting against something you didn't even know you were going to be fighting against. Maybe even didn't know existed. Right. And I mean she's a huge hero for me and that cause I really believe that if -if even one in ten people were like- maybe even one in a hundred people were like her, everything would be really different, really fast. Yeah. So- But you know and I mean she probably managed to stay loyal to her own tribe, her own identity politics, but also learned to fight for other people. I mean that's sort of the definition of what I think we were trying to get to with this episode, was to really talk about maybe you can actually not hate the thing that's different than you or that you don't understand. But you can actually fight for it, you know, even if you don't believe or act or do you what that other group does. Yeah and it's and there's a there's this really great article on tribalism in the Wall Street journal. This guy was kinda talking about his personal experience and -and I feel like that that concept: I more than the sum of my parts and so is every American. Yet increasingly we sort each other into groups making sweeping assumptions based on binary labels: Democrat Republican, black white, male female. The labels are mere pixels in the picture of an individual's identity. They are not the picture itself. No word, no matter how descriptive, could ever distill all the nuance and complexity that is a single human being." I feel like that -you know this guy actually if I remember correctly said just pull that one except out but I'm pretty sure this guy was actually identify he identified himself as a conservative Republican and yet also stood for certain social programs. And -and said you know it's really hard because if I say any one aspect of who I am people then have this cascading belief system about all the rest of my my beliefs and and desires and ideas. Do you remember a time when the term moderate Republican or moderate Democrat wasn't a bad word. I was very young I think when that was true. But I mean you know I think there there there used to be a time when they were pro -choice Republicans or- I don't believe you. pro -life Democrats. -No Way.- And everybody's had to split and so you know and now with identity politics people pick that one thing. Well I'm pro choice I'm gonna vote for all of that stuff. It doesn't even matter if they get along with the other things going on cause they've chosen that one thing as part of their identity politics. They've created their tribe based around one belief that they feel so strongly about nothing else matters. I do think that's true. I -I also know that there is a period of time when for me, no matter what else was going on, I had to vote for my own survival. And -and it's tricky too cause I've looked at those things where you know a lot of times people will vote against their own economic interests. And I'm you know I may have done that. I don't -I don't recall every you know decision I made. And there is also a -a point where voting for the person who is going to support certain kinds of anti discrimination or opportunities for legalizing relationships for me as a person who is in a same sex relationship. It was sort of- it really had to win. Cause that was it was about my survival. And it was about how my family was being taken care of right? And I think that that's all that that's the other piece like when people who are in dealing with the stuff that black people in our country deal with. It -it becomes a one issue vote. And it's -it's not it's not a it's not as much of a choice sometimes as it is a simple fact of, yeah actually these hundred fifty other things matter to me. And this one thing is how I'm gonna make a difference in terms of being able to survive. I completely understand that and from the other side of it though, you know a lot of Republicans vote strictly on the "who's gonna to protect the second amendment gun rights issue." Yeah. And for them they see it as a matter of survival. So yeah I mean there are certain things that can be threatened that are legitimate, realistically I don't think any kind of more stringent gun laws without you know completely blowing away the second amendment are really going to cause a lack of survival in those people. But they see it the same way. Yeah and I I'm not I think it is a really good point that it's not a if it's not something that feels variable to them any more than it did to me. And I also just wanted to address that it's not always a feeling of something like this is a choice in my life. Yeah. It was this is my life. And that's just it and I think we have to start to see that you can't just be flippant about it because you made a compelling argument and I believe you that you were voting for survival. But we can't be flippant and say well the second amendment rights aren't a matter of survival so their opinion should matter less. Cause to them they don't see it differently. I agree and that's where I feel like the talking to each other across political differences might possibly have some benefit. And it's one of the things honestly that I really value about the people in my world. I feel like I've been very lucky to have a truly diverse set of friends to give me a variety of perspectives- sometimes more aggressively than others. However I'm always having the chance to learn and to say well I'm sorry I didn't understand. Which sometimes is hard I really don't like being ignorant or wrong. And I appreciate that I have people who are willing to give me a chance to learn right. Yeah. And I think that is the real gist of kind of where I'm at on this topic. You're pointing at something what am I supposed to see? I just wanted if we are gonna to close out, I really wanted to talk about what Sarah Silverman is doing. Yeah and you know more about that than I do so. So- I -I do remember so she had that Twitter moment. It was beautiful - a few months ago- do you remember that? - yeah - so you can correct me if I miss some of the details here but basically she confronted somebody that had really attacked her. And -and -and said some very harsh things to her and dug in and tried to understand him and where he was coming from. Yeah she read through his Twitter feed and saw that he was really suffering. Right and spoke to that instead of to his comment. Yeah and I -I -I do think that was beautiful and I do wish that more people could do that. And in some ways you kind of have to be Sarah Silverman to really pull that off because- well I mean she- internet's filled with people like us average you know. She made a big difference. She made a big impact because obviously she has like twelve million followers. And -and so not only did she make a big impact in that person's life but she made a big impact in terms of twelve million people seeing it done differently. She's also doing a television show called I Love America and the motivation for her in doing it is to look for what connects us. So she goes out and spends time with people that are very different from her. Shares meal with them and this one group she was talking about it and I believe they were in Louisiana, had never met someone who is Jewish. And she went to their house and had dinner with them. And as part of it, it was to like talk about who she was and to share who she was with them to receive who they were. And I was like What a brilliant idea!" And and she was inspired actually by the divisiveness of our country. She was inspired to say let instead of complaining about the fact that things are divisive, let's find ways to connect. Yeah. And I find that to be incredibly inspiring and offer me a little hope. I think that is the key to overcoming tribalism is not to leave your tribe but to try to understand the other tribe a little bit better. And stop focusing on the core identity politic that you are you know that the political stance that you're trying to live in. And understand that there might be other perspectives and maybe there can be some communication about it. And maybe we aren't are all as far off as we think we are. I think ultimately we have far more in common than we do have that separates us. It's hard to convince people of that but it's very likely true. So welcome to this week's BiCurean moment. Hello! I'm very excited to share mine. I can tell so you can go first. Well actually so I've been watching this netflix show called GLOW. Okay. The gorgeous ladies of wrestling. You keep sending me quotes from the show randomly and and I haven't had much TV time so I admit I have I've put it on the to do list to watch it but I have not seen it yet. So what I am what is so BiCurean about it and what I love about it is that it is nothing like what I expected. You -you pull it up, look at the image, and you're just like this is all going to be exploitation and fluff. You may ask why I wanted to watch it but I'm hoping that you'll just let that slide right by. It is incredibly intricate and deep while also being fabulously entertaining. They just hit the mark. I like where a lot of shows are going lately they seem to be doing that %HESITATION it's almost like somebody took the governor off of the -off this thing. And people are really you know getting in and targeting things on shows that are much deeper themes. So I -I'm intrigued to see it now that you've you've brought it up. And and and I've watched a few other shows lately that have been good but- I can give you my favorite quote of the day. Why don't you do that. What's that smell? Bourbon and despair. I think I've lived that. Yeah no is it it just it just hit me in the heart. And I did not I thought it was gonna be like Xena honestly -super fun. Which please don't take away my Xena card I love Xena But GLOW- so much more going on. I do plan to watch it at some point so maybe you can rewatch it and we can watch together. Sounds good. So my moment actually has to do with something there's been a lot of articles coming out because now at this point couple of months ago Gibson guitars filed for bankruptcy. And they had been under bankruptcy watch for a long time. Primarily because %HESITATION the CEO Henry had had been trying very hard to build the company as a lifestyle brand. He fancied himself the next Steve Jobs. And I think he was possibly insane. And I can say this from a qualified place because the company I was working for in 2012 was bought out by Gibson. And I was one of very few employees that was left on board. And I jumped ship after two months because it was a very strange and bad place to work. So I made the decision to to move out of that industry at the time. For the reason that I did not want to continue to work for Gibson guitars but the articles are bringing up some interesting things which is we live in a world now where DJs and pop stars are more popular then people who play guitar. We - we don't have a modern Eric Clapton. Well we still have Eric Clapton. We do. We have them. He's not dead right? He's not. But he's not touring and he's not young. And -and there's like so many of the you know like so many of these even just bands that were driven by guitars seem to be going away and so they were talking that you know the guitar industry in general has slowed down. But what I found interesting about it is and just from my personal experience what most of the analysis is is that Gibson is not failing because people aren't playing guitar. It failed because it was run poorly. And it's strange to think of such an iconic brand as being run poorly but there's a lot of evidence that that's the case. So it's kind of interesting to think about you know the world we live in from a musical standpoint shifting to more electronic music. And guitars becoming less of a thing. And that leading to people picking up guitars less and buying guitars less. Thanks for listening and oh I'm gonna read this, ready? Thanks for listening. If you have ideas feedback thoughts please find us on social media. BiCurean on Facebook Twitter and Instagram or give us a call at 720-507-7309 or email podcast at BiCurean dot com. Thanks everyone.